Weaving Journalistic Detail into Descriptions of Places Transcript

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So this week, we are doing the second to last webinar in our series on “Journalistic Detail.” And, you know, this is a topic where it’s a term that I’ve made up. I’ll go into what that means for those of you who haven’t joined us for any of the earlier ones in this series. But it seems like, “Oh, detail, yeah. That’s something that I’ll need to learn someday,” or, “I’ll have to pay attention to that when I’m doing bigger, longer pieces,” or something like that. It doesn’t feel as sexy as talking about, you know, how to structure your pitches or how to get more stories out of your trips.

But the thing is that this is the key. It’s so interesting, since I’ve been doing this series, to see how many coaching calls I’m on where we are looking at somebody’s pitch, and this is the problem. This is what’s keeping that pitch from being one where my eyes just go right from one sentence to the next, and I get to the end and I’m like, “Yeah,” as an editor would.

And that’s the problem, is that the secret sauce for all these things, whether it’s pitching more, being better about how you use your time, having better writing, it’s never something sexy or formulaic. It’s skills, and it’s coming to a deeper or better, or new understanding of how something really works that you really get, that’s so internalized that you can just go out there and apply it to everything. And so that’s why we’re spending five weeks on this topic, because it will be the turning point with your pitches getting responses, with your pieces getting repeat business from those editors, with so many different parts of being a well-paid, productive, happy travel writer with a full-time successful career. So that being said, in particular, this week is we talk about how to incorporate journalistic detail into descriptions of places.

As I said, I’m gonna check back in for those of you who haven’t gotten the earlier calls in this series on what I mean when I say, “journalistic detail,” since, as I said, it’s a term that I have entirely made up. I don’t know if anybody else ever uses it. But I’ve made it up with the particular words that I have in it for a number of reasons, and it can do some really great things for you, some of which I hinted on earlier. And then we’re gonna look at the particular challenges of journalistic detail in terms of descriptions of places. And the irony is that, as opposed to short articles, or descriptions of people or other areas where we showed how the particularities of the detail might be the hard part, with descriptions of places, as you’ll see, great pieces or pieces in big outlets, or whatever you want to call them, don’t have very much of what you might call “place descriptions.” And we’re gonna talk about why that is, and where exactly and how exactly you should be using place descriptions best in your pieces.

Because, I mention this all the time when we do the “Journalistic Detail” webinars, I know, but I hear folks say all the time that they don’t know how to write that flowery descriptive stuff. Or they just say, “I don’t know how to write like a travel writer.” And what they really mean is they’re not comfortable writing descriptions. But the irony, and we’ll look at this in a couple different pieces, is that a very straight, kind of, description of a place is very and frequently part of even long travel pieces. And so we’ll look at where you use it and why, and what should go into it. But the corollary of this is that journalistic detail is more often used to create ambiance rather than to strictly describe a location, and so that’s why we’ve got a separate webinar on that.

And I also broke that out because this idea of “ambiance” and what it is, and what it means, and how you show it on the page rather than telling it is all very fuzzy and very crafty. And it feels very, you know, scary, or something that you don’t know how to do. And so I wanted to really spend time breaking into that.

And then, as we’ve been doing with both these “Journalistic Detail” webinars and the “Article Nuts and Bolts” that came before them, we’re going to go and look at several different real-world examples. And I’ve pulled one that I’ll also use next week. I have a couple other ones that I queued up next week as well, while I was looking for these because they don’t have descriptions of places, but they’ve got great ambiance. So we’re gonna look at a couple different ones. We’re gonna look at one which is kind of a counter-example. I have one place where it does go into a more place-oriented description, but the rest of the article actually uses descriptions of people to create its descriptions of place. So we’re gonna look at a few different types of examples today, in terms of how they relate to the topic as opposed to the more typical, “Here are examples of exactly what you want to do.”

We’re gonna look at some examples that also illustrate why this is a challenge and where you don’t want to do it.

So as I mentioned earlier, before we start talking about journalistic detail, specifically in the realm of descriptions of places, I just want to take a second to remind you guys who are perhaps joining this series for the first time and also those of you who, perhaps, haven’t caught a webinar on it in a little bit, what I mean when I say, “journalistic detail.” Again, this is a word that I made up. I don’t think you will hear any other people use it. But if they do, then say, “Yay. You must also know Gabi,” because I’d be very excited to hear other people start using this.

So other words that often substitute for this that are harder to really nail down what somebody wants is when people say, “Oh, like, this is a bit vague. We need more specifics,” or when people say, “Oh, I just don’t know. It doesn’t sound really interesting.” All of these sort of responses tend to come from a lack of journalistic detail. I was talking on a coaching call earlier today with somebody who has a pitch that they’re doing which is specifically about a hotel, and I’m gonna paraphrase here exactly what the sentence we were working on was. But she was pitching a section of a magazine which is specifically about one hotel, preferably a new hotel that’s opening. And it’s about the hotel, but then it’s also about the surrounding area. So in her second paragraph of her pitch, when she was talking about what she would explore in the piece, you know, she said, “I’d like to propose a, whatever, 700-word story on blah-blah-blah hotel for your blah-blah-blah section because it’s the newest five-star hotel in this area, and this city recently got this incredible accolade.”

And then the very next sentence, after that sentence, which had a lot of details in it, right, the detail of the section, the number of words, the specific accolade, all this stuff, her next sentence was, you know, “I will describe, or I will explain, or I will explore the rooms, the amenities, and the dining options at the hotel.” And I was like, “Okay. If I was writing this sentence, I would spend just a little bit of time on the website,” and we did that together on the phone. And I would say, you know, “I will explore the…” You know, you might want to pick an adjective here. I’m trying to not be too specific about this hotel. But you could say, you know, “I’ll explore the 18th-century design elements and the hotel’s 223 rooms, which include 7 suites, all with balconies overlooking blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, with dining areas overlooking the ocean, and the 7 dining options including 2 from Michelin-starred chefs, and one from an up-and-coming James Beard Award winner, along with amenities such as 24-hour butler service.” So you can definitely say that sentence becomes longer.

We talked, especially, in the webinar on using journalistic detail in short articles, about how to use journalistic detail and when, and when you shouldn’t use it. But that’s the kind of thing where, if you are writing something about a hotel and you, obviously, in your piece are gonna talk about the rooms and the amenities, and the dining options, in that pitch, you want to describe them somehow in a way that is interesting. And something that we talked about in that coaching call that I thought we really kind of helped hit the nail on the head with what we’re looking for in journalistic detail here, is that journalistic detail is something that modifies a noun – that noun might be the topic, or it might be something larger, like the rooms in the hotel, or something more narrow rather than the rooms in the hotel – in a way that makes it very interesting.

So if you ever say a noun and on its own, it’s not interesting, you need journalistic detail to make it sound like that, or it doesn’t belong in the piece. But likewise, it doesn’t belong in the piece unless it’s related to your hyperclear story concept.

So for instance, as we were talking about this pitch that I was talking about earlier with this hotel, one of the things that we talked about is, “What is the point of this piece? What is the point of this pitch? What is she really trying to get across?” And what we landed on was this “because” sentence, which I told you earlier, “because it is the newest, and the city has recently gotten a lot of acclaim for its food scene.” So what that means is that the details that we choose to include need to fit into that. The details need to be highlighting this new chapter, this new neighborhood in this city. They need to be showing how what’s great about the hotel is these new things that have never been there before. And also, of course, highlighting how this fits into the city’s food scene. And it might be that the restaurants at the hotel aren’t that great, but then we talk about how incredibly close it is or how incredibly easy it is to access these other great dining opportunities.

So this lens of both, “What can we say that will make things more interesting than they currently look on the page, that will make anybody, in fact, interested in this?” and also, “Does that thing relate to the point of the story? If not, it shouldn’t be here.” And having the ability to incorporate journalistic detail to your pieces will do two really wonderful things for you. And we’re gonna talk a lot more about the first one on this call, specifically.

But it will make your editors notice your pitches more. I mentioned this earlier when I talked about the idea that there are some pitches that I get that I read them, and my eyes just keep going. I don’t stop reading. I don’t get hung up on anything. There’s nothing that I highlight that I need to talk to the person about on our call. There’s nothing that I stop and make a note next to about how I might change it, or about what I don’t like about it. My eyes just keep going.

And that’s what happens when you have, not just an appropriate amount of detail or level of detail, but really focused details that tie into your story concept, a.k.a. “journalistic details,” in your pitches. Your editors go with them. And it might be that they don’t have a place right now for a story on a random Pacific island, because they just covered a different random Pacific island. And even though it’s not the same one, they can’t cover Pacific islands that are hard to reach more than once a year, or more than once every 18 months, or more than once every 6 months, or whatever it is for that publication. But they will be impressed with your writing, and that is the point of a pitch. The point of a pitch is not to sell a single story idea. It’s to make an impression on an editor, and journalistic detail will do that for you.

But secondly and I think, actually, much more importantly, I have so many conversations with so many of you about how long it takes you to write things. I don’t know that I would say this is the number one thing that I see holding people back. I think not knowing what to do or where to start, or I think there’s a couple other things that might hold people back more. But I would definitely say that spending too much time writing things creates a huge and horrible loop, which is that if you’re spending too much time on something, then you can only do a few, then you’re more attached to the ones that you have done and you get more emotional about whether you hear back from them or not. And because you’re getting fewer out, you don’t have so many things in circulation at a time. So that also is gonna make you feel more precious about the ones that you’ve already done and being precious is the enemy of being a freelance writer in so many ways.

So being able to write faster is really, I found, the crux to being a great and successful freelancer. And when you know exactly your hyperclear story concept and you know that it’s pointless to include any detail that you can’t put across in an appropriate level of journalistic detail, a.k.a. “factual and interesting, and clear and specific,” then the few things that you have at your disposal to put in that pitch, that list becomes so small.

And the pitch just writes itself, or even the piece just writes itself. So all of these benefits of journalistic detail being said, people descriptions, descriptions of people, which we talked about in the previous webinar in this series, and description of places are where these benefits really start to deliver the most. And that’s because editors are on the lookout, consciously or not, for lazy language around describing places. It really stands out to them very quickly.

I do this when I have my editor hat on and I’m reviewing people’s pitches all the time. When I get to something where there is not either clarity and specificity or where there is a detail about a place that really shouldn’t be there, especially if that detail is also vague and doesn’t tie into the piece, in my head, I’m like, “Oh no,” at the very beginning of your pitch, because this happens so often in the lead. And secondly, those are the places that I see you guys spending the most time on. Okay? So I’m gonna pop over now to something that I have set up for you guys as like an example/counter-example. Because before I start to tell you what journalistic detail really means in terms of the setting, the place setting or the description of a place in your piece, it’s important to understand that it needs to be used sparingly. Which is completely counterintuitive, I know. And this goes back to what I was saying earlier about people who say, “Oh, well I can’t be a travel writer because I don’t know how to write that flowery descriptive stuff.” And I say, “That’s great because editors don’t want that most of the time.”

So before we talk about what you need to do with your descriptions of places, and when and how, and where and, most importantly, why, I want to show you, kind of, “in the wild,” so to say, how they are and aren’t used in a piece that I found to be a really interesting challenge of a piece in the first place, in terms of the scope of the travel. So this piece that we’re gonna look at, it should be up on your screen now. Let me see if I can make it just a little bigger for you. Great. Okay. So this piece is in “The New York Times,” and it came out quite a few years ago. So this is by Matt Gross, who I just saw the other day. He used to be the Frugal Traveler for “The New York Times,” and then he went, he was the Editor of “Bon Appetite,” and now I believe he’s freelancing again. And in this piece, there’s no subhead here, interestingly. But this piece is about him kind of not exactly following the route of “The Odyssey,” in terms of getting home from Troy to Ithaca, but kind of following the whim of it, following the “going where the boat will take you” of it.

So he, basically, starts at the beginning. He starts in Troy, and then he takes whatever bus he can – with no planning, whatever bus, boat, anything will get him to where he needs to go. And if this schedule doesn’t work out, then maybe he has to backtrack. So that’s kinda the whole idea of the piece. Now, in terms of, “What’s the conclusion of the piece? What is he really trying to do with all of this?” I’ll just run down to the end quickly, so we can see kind of where he lands with this.

So in terms of his conclusion on the piece, he in several places stops by to try to understand Homer, Homer’s life, Homer who wrote “The Odyssey.” And he says in the last paragraph, “Homer’s arrival signaled my departure,” this is, I think, a different Homer, “and I took my last looks at the waters I hadn’t swum and the hills I hadn’t climbed. A day earlier, a friend had emailed me Constantine Cavafy’s poem “Ithaca,” and a few of its lines stuck in my head: ‘Ithaca gives you the marvelous journey. Without her, you wouldn’t have set out. She has nothing left to give you now.’” And he says, “And as I boarded the ferry, there was nothing else that I wanted.”

So the overall sense of this piece is kind of that it’s about the journey rather than the destination in a really, really kind of simplistic term. So that being said, since it’s about the journey, but the journey goes through so many different islands, how does he show us these places? Does he even show us these places, or is it just about the journey? So you’ll see when we start here, he literally has a description of what “here” means for him at the moment. He says, “‘Here’ was the seaside town of Neapoli, on the southeastern end of the Peloponnesian peninsula of Greece, where nearly two weeks of island-hopping from the Turkish coast across the Aegean Sea had come to a sudden and maddening halt.” Okay? So even when he’s telling you here, is he describing the seaside town of Neapoli to you? Not really.

He’s telling you physically where it’s located, but only because that physical location is related to his journey. It’s related to the fact that he has hopped from the Turkish coast across the Aegean, now to the southeastern end of the Peloponnesian peninsula. Okay? So he’s not telling you more about this place – what he sees there, you know, what the people are like – than how it relates to his journey. Even here, he’s like, “In Neapoli, however, there were no buses until morning, and I had no choice but to spend this night in this cheerful, if sleepy, seaside town. Even a day or two earlier, I wouldn’t have minded. In fact, for the previous 10 days, I’d been delighted by the capricious whims of bus and ferry schedules. But now, I was due to fly home to New York from Athens in two days, and this delay was unbearable.” So again, he’s saying, “cheerful, if sleepy, seaside town.” That’s all you get there.

What does he say here about this restaurant? “As I numbed disappointment with ouzo at a waterfront restaurant,” no descriptors there, “I noticed something unusual on the sidewalk before me: a penny-farthing, one of those 19th-century bicycles with an enormous front wheel and a tiny rear one. The owner, it turned out, was Jim, a 20-something hairdresser from Athens who was sitting nearby with his girlfriend, Chara, a schoolteacher. They were a sweet couple, definitely hipsters, and I smiled when they asked me, as had practically every Greek I met on the journey, how I’d wound up here.” So this is what I was saying about how descriptions of places are, in fact, quite sparing in pieces. Right? Even up here, we get only a more geographic-oriented description of Neapoli because that’s what matters here.

And even here, when he’s talking about the restaurant, he is not telling you about the food. He is not telling you about the view of the waterfront from the restaurant. He is pointing out something that’s not so much of the place. It’s in the place – he sees this penny-farthing – but it’s not of the place. It’s this guy, Jim, who’s a hipster hairdresser from Athens. The cycle is really more of a description of Jim so much than it is about this place. Right? And so we could say, “Okay. Well, why even mention the restaurant? Why mention the sidewalk? Why mention the penny-farthing? Why set this scene in the first place?” He immediately goes into himself and why he’s here. He says, “I’ve come from Troy, and I’m trying to get to Ithaca. Like Odysseus: no map, no guidebook, no route, no internet, no hotel reservations. Thus began a tale I’d been telling, and adding to, ever since I’d began my Odyssey.” And that’s all he says – no more about these people.

So we have to ask ourselves, “Why does he choose to include this detail?” And the point here is that he really needed to tell his own story of why he’s doing this in a setting. He needed to set it up for you as if he was telling a story. And rather than do it in a way where, you know, some other tourist has asked him or the local, like the owner of a restaurant or his taxi driver, or somebody in a rental car, he’s chosen to use this little, tiny snippet of color. “Color” is a word folks love to use when they mean that they’re introducing something interesting or unusual. This little, tiny snippet of color, which is actually meant to tell you about the place. Right? So he’s in this Neapoli, right? Which is a cheerful, if sleepy, seaside town. And rather than tell you about the way, you know, the types of hotels that were there or maybe to, you know, sit in his seat and describe the tourists or other visitors that he saw, he’s weaving it into his story.

He’s weaving in the need to tell us, as the reader, what he’s doing by offering this little snippet of this place and these people who asked him this question. So this is the thing – he’s not describing. He’s accomplishing multiple things at once while incorporating a little bit of description, which rather than being of a place, is of the people in it. And I went through this piece looking for, thinking, “Oh, he went to so many places. I’m sure there’s some great description of places in Matt’s piece. Matt’s a great writer. Let me find some to tell you.” But the funny thing is that it goes along and it’s so about him. “I encounter uncertainty,” he talks about these ferries and what happened, “unlike Odysseus, I got lucky.” And then, again, this tiny, tiny description, “In Ayvalik, a lovely Turkish town with a jumble of old streets at its center, ferries were leaving for Lesbos.” He doesn’t tell us more than that. He doesn’t even tell us too, too much about the setting, the physical description of the ferries. Okay?

In this one, he has, “Inside the ship, whose homey décor had not been updated in a couple of decades, about 100 families, couples, and groups of friends mostly kept to themselves, snacking on sweets packed for the trip. This was a modest ferry: other, larger ones would have free Wi-Fi and show reruns of ‘Friends’ dubbed into Greek. Outside was more exciting: the water flat and sparkling with golden-hour light, small sailboats and fishing skiffs cruising near shore, tiny islands silhouetted by the setting sun.” So here, we do have a description of a place, but it’s a transient place. Right? It’s of the ferry. And he puts this in here because this is really the place, in a way, where he’s spending this trip, on ferries. He says, “This two-hour ferry ride would be a typical one.” So here is perhaps the best example in this whole piece of him actually setting a scene for you.

But if you look, some of it is description of physical location. Right? Mostly, this part at the end about, “the water flat and sparkling,” “small sailboats,” “tiny islands.”But it is in many ways largely, otherwise, of people. And this is one thing that I really want you guys to understand, is that most of the time when you want to describe a place, just like what he does up here, what you should actually do is instead describe the people in it. Let me get back to where we were. Okay? So like, if you are taking notes, write this down, “Most of the time when you want to describe a place, you should instead describe the people in it.” So he says a little bit about the homey décor that hasn’t been updated in a couple of decades. He doesn’t say what he means there, but he tells you about the people on the ferry to give you a sense of his actual surroundings.

It’s people keeping to themselves, but lots of them. And they have come on this ferry bringing their lives with them. They bring their friends or their families, or their couples. They bring food that they have brought themselves for the trip. Okay? This is what he’s trying to create for you, is a sense that in this transient setting where he’s on this journey on his own, other people have these journeys that are more well-wrought ruts in their lives, that they do this a lot. This is how they do it. You know, they even, in many of these ferries, have the normal comforts of Wi-Fi and reruns of “Friends.” Okay? So it’s just like they’re at home, except they happen to be on a ferry, going to an island. Whereas for him, it’s not like home. He’s lost, basically, in this sea, trying to get where he needs to go.

Now, there’s one other part, really, here, and I’m gonna have to just do a keyword search, I think, to find it. There’s one other part here, where he really kind of does what I might call “description of place.” Okay? And that’s here.

So he is on the island of Kythira, and he is in the island’s biggest town and settled down under a taverna’s awning for lunch. He says, “Of course, the rain eventually eased, and I found another, kinder rental-car outfit, and I drove back roads through luxuriously arcing hills to reach teeny-tiny Avlemonas, a village recommended by Anastasia of Ios, where the sounds of cool jazz and blues lured me to the waterside Mirodia Kalokairiou Café. And while I sat drinking Belgian beer and watching clouds rise over a ridge with the goateed owner, Stavros, and his employee, Stefanos, a recent cooking-school graduate. ‘That one looks like a man,’ said Stefanos. Stavros agreed: ‘Like the god Hermes.’ When Odysseus lost his way after Kythira, he landed 10 days later in the land of the Lotus-eaters. I was there already. The beer, the comradeship, the casual mythological references, the braised goat at Stefanos’s family’s restaurant, the dramatic gorges and homey cafes and earthquake-ravaged churches – why move on? If Ithaca represents sought-after home, Stavros said: ‘Kythira is the opposite of that. It’s the paradise you can never find.’”

So I really love this paragraph in terms of a description of place. Right? He paints this great picture that he caps off with this quote, which tells you, but in the words not of the writer, but of somebody he’s quoting, what it is he’s trying to illustrate for you here through the beer, the sense of community, like, the conversation, the food, the scenery. Right? And you’ll notice that on most of these, he goes into detail. He doesn’t tell you what beer, and the comradeship he’s already painted. But then he doesn’t say, “the conversation.” He says, “the casual mythological references.” He doesn’t say, “the food.” He says, “the braised goat at Stefanos’s family’s restaurant.” He doesn’t say, “the views.” He says, “the dramatic gorges and homey cafes and earthquake-ravaged churches.” Okay? This right here, folks, this is what I mean about journalistic detail. Okay?

And how does that fit into the larger point of this piece? Because the point of the piece is that it’s about the journey, not the destination. Right? So this one very…Like I said, there’s very few places in here where he’s really describing a place, and he does it here. He “lands,” so to say, on this description and this place because it ties into the point of the piece, that it’s not about Ithaca. Ithaca doesn’t have anything left to give you. It’s about the places that you moved through on the way, and about those communities that you found that are, you know, in some cases, inherently magical because of their transience. Okay? Because of these chance encounters with these fascinating people, with cool jazz and blues music in the background. Okay?

So the interesting thing about this particular point that I showed you is – like I said, when you want to describe a place, describe people – he describes the people first. Right? He describes who sent him here, he describes Stavros and Stefanos, he has a conversation with them, before he even gets into the description of places. Okay? And then, like I said, there’s a lot in this particular piece that’s of either him kind of describing his thoughts or his movements. And anytime he gets into talking about something, a place, it’s all about people. Right? Here, we’re back to talking about Ester, and she talked about the challenges and all of this. Okay?

Because this is a great example of a piece where he covers so much ground in, for this topic area, a relatively small number of words. And he does it by keeping what he describes tuned into his point, which is that of being about the journey and not the destination. And that’s what’s really important, like I said, about journalistic detail, is making sure that you’re tying it into the point of your piece. So that kind of begs the question, if you don’t know exactly what your piece is about, should you even sit down to write it? Because if you do, what are you gonna write? If you don’t know yet exactly what your piece is about, what is even gonna end up on that page? So I’ve had some really interesting chats with this about some people, particularly in the realm of long, like, book-lengths projects, sometimes in the cases of fiction and sometimes in the cases of narrative non-fiction.

And the thing that’s been coming up time and time again that I’ve noticed is that in a really brief, almost like pedantic way, you could say there’s two kinds of writers. There’s writers who are thinkers first, writers who, you know, perhaps have spent years and years thinking about what this project might be, if this project even makes sense, if they even want to write it. And then, by the time they sit down, it’s crystalized. They know that this is important, they know who the audience for it is, they know what they need to include and what they shouldn’t include, and they’re able to sit down and just write it. And then there are people who think through writing.

So they don’t do it in their head and then write. Their head works as the words come out on the page. And what I mean by that is that these are folks who will sit down and perhaps write an entire novel to understand what their novel is about, and then throw that whole thing out and start writing from scratch the novel that they were originally trying to write because they now understand what it is.

So I don’t want to tell you that one is better than the other. But you are probably one of these two types. And the sooner that you figure it out, the happier you will be. Because if you’re in that first category, you’re somebody who thinks in your head and then it goes down on the page, if you try to go on the page early, if you try to write when it’s not yet clear to you what it’s about, you’re gonna hate it. And you’re gonna hate yourself, and you’re gonna hate the process, and you’re gonna want to stop as soon as possible. If you’re somebody who needs to think through writing and you don’t give yourself that space, then you’re either gonna think that everything that you’ve written is horrible because it doesn’t have a point, because you haven’t yet written enough to figure out what that point is, or you’re gonna think everything takes you too long because you’re not being honest with yourself about how long it needs to take you.

So to go back to what we’re talking about today, which is about descriptions of places, I told you how these things play out differently for these two different people. But let’s look at it in practice. So if you’re somebody who already knows what it is that you want to say…And, you know, even if you’re that kind of person in other areas of your work, like maybe you write in another job that you have right now that’s not travel writing, and you feel like you can’t do it in travel writing, you will get there, I will tell you that.

If you think you’re that kind of person, but it doesn’t apply in travel writing, it’s experience. It’s practice. You will get there. So let’s say you’re that kind of person, what does this mean? It means that as you’re writing and you’re thinking about what needs to go down on that page, you need to say, “Okay. I want someone to understand this. I want somebody to…You know, I want to describe this place, I want to describe this restaurant, and people need to understand why it’s here. They need to understand why it’s important and why it ties back into what I’m doing.”

You ask yourself first, “Is the best way to show them that through the people in this place?” People that you saw, what average people do, perhaps some quotes. If not, if they need to see it rather than get a sense of it, then you do a description of a place. Now, if you’re the second type of writer though, something really interesting happens. I actually really encourage you to write out lots of sensory details about whatever it is that you want to write about. Write about how it sounds, how it tastes, how it feels on your skin, not just how it looks. Because what will happen, interestingly, if you are a person who thinks on the page is that as you write out those details, the ones that you’re subconscious has chosen to feed you will help you understand what it is about this place that you want to express. It will help you find out what your article is about so that you can then go back and use this more journalistic detail approach to say, “Okay. Everything I write needs to tie into the point of this piece.”

So here’s the thing – editors say…Every time I go to an editor panel and they have the time and the experience level in the audience to get past the really basics of how to pitch, they say that the one thing they wish they would see more of in pitches and pieces is characters. And that goes back to what I was saying, that you should more often be showing what a place is like through characters than describing it through location physical description place setting. Okay? So we will get, next week, into choosing the right tool at the right moment to create a sense of ambiance. That’s what we’re gonna talk all about next week. But you have to be really mindful, as in this piece of Matt Gross’s that I just showed you, of where you use description of place.

Like I showed you in that piece, he used it to really land with Kythira. And it was interesting that you notice that we got to the end of the piece very shortly after that. So he was using it very powerfully as kind of a point of arrival, a climax almost, in his piece. Okay? Whereas when he was talking about the ferry and what the ferry was like, that was not necessarily so much a point of arrival in the same way of landing. But it was starting to give you a picture into what this journey is really like for him, and what really matters was the movement. So in this piece, what was important was journey over destination. Right? And so it was very telling that he didn’t describe the destinations. He saved that description for what was important. Okay?

And this rolls back to that age-old thing, that an editor doesn’t want a story about Macau. They want to know exactly, specifically, what you’re pitching them. But it’s not just about you knowing it. It’s not just about you knowing that, “I’m pitching you this piece because you have a section about hotels that are luxurious, and this hotel is the newest five-star hotel in a city that’s getting a lot of tourism for its food.” It’s not just about knowing that. Okay? It’s not just about knowing what the point of your story is or what you want to focus on. It’s also about showing an editor through the words that you choose to include, through the techniques that you choose to include in your pitch, that you have the ability to express that interestingly. Okay?

So let’s take some more looks at what I mean by that. We’ll scoot back over to the web browser. And I will be better about sending you the link at what we’re looking at beforehand. So this piece right here is from “Outside” magazine. And I’ve actually honed in on sort of the beginning of this piece. But here’s what it’s about. It’s called – this is a long subject line, right – “No Amount of Traffic or Instagrammers or Drunks Can Take the Magic Out of the (Semi-) Wilderness.” And the subhead here, or the deck here is, “In which Wells Towers braves the rain, smog, and peak-weekend hordes of Great Smoky Mountains National Park to give his three-year-old son a first taste of nature’s sweetness.” Okay? So I’m just going down, let’s see, one, two, three, four paragraphs here. And I’ll make this bigger for you guys. This is where he is describing what the Great Smoky Mountains Park is like in the vein of the point of his piece. Okay? So this is really laden with journalistic detail, details that are descriptive of the place but entirely chosen because of how closely they hue to what this piece is about.

So here’s what he says, “But to visit Great Smoky and complain that it’s choked with out-of-staters and Winnebagoists is like going to the Grand Canyon and complaining that it’s a large hole. Great Smoky is America’s most heavily trafficked (if not necessarily trodden) national park. Close to 11 million people come here annually – nearly twice the Grand Canyon’s tourist haul – and all of the houseguests are taking their toll. The park’s fog-cloaked valleys resonate with Harley pipes. Smog has cropped the ridge top views. Acid rain has killed off brook trout in some high-elevation streams and is threatening red spruce. Thanks to industrial, vehicular, and coal-power emissions, air quality in Great Smoky has been among the worst in the eastern United States, though, fortunately, ground-level ozone has decreased in the past 15 years due to tighter air-quality regulations. For these reasons, although I’ve spent most of my life within a half-day’s drive of the park, I’ve never once been tempted to make the trip.”

So you could describe the Great Smoky Mountains and say so many things. I, myself, have written about them a ton of times for work, and I’ve been there several times, and I can’t say that I disagree with everything that he’s saying here. But I can tell you there are certainly many other ways to describe this park and, in particular, to describe the wonders of it that cause so many people to come here, or the accessibility or what not.

So this is a place where you’ll see…We can look back up. You know, he’s talking about Florida license plates and a Jeep. He’s talking about park rangers. What are they trying to do? Nowhere up here is he telling you what’s great about this park. He completely reserves his description of the place for details that tie entirely into his point, his topic, which is about how overcrowded it is. Okay? So you’ll see here, he’s saying, “It’s choked with out-of-staters and Winnebagoists.” He’s talking about the traffic. He’s talking about the number of people so that you can start to get a picture of that.

He even talks about the sound. Right? Remember how I was talking about using all of the sensory details. I love this sentence, “The park’s fog-cloaked valleys resound with Harley pipes.” When I first read that, I was like, “Is that some type of bagpipe that I don’t know?” No. He means Harley-Davidson motorcycles, right? And these words are very active. He’s saying that the valleys resound. He’s saying that smoke crops the views. He’s saying that the acid rain has killed brook trout. So he’s very active in these detail sentences as well.

And you’ll notice that several of them are quite short, which contrast with his kind of longer sentences where he includes more things in there. So this is a description in which the only things…Only, right? Nothing about why people go to Great Smoky Mountains. The only things he has in here are 100% related to the point of his piece, even to the point where he’s talking about how the air quality is the worst, but then he starts to point to this upside. Right? Which is, fortunately, it’s reduced due to tighter air-quality regulations. All right?

So let’s look all the way down here to the point of his piece and see how this is foreshadowed in this description. Okay? He says, “In the end, what do we want from the woods? Primitively put, we want woods to put us in a feeling that doesn’t happen indoors. Its symptoms are looking around, shutting up, and greedy respiration. It’s a feeling that has something to do with our helplessness before nonhuman splendor and geologic time, a feeling one can’t describe without risking language best left to the druid grove or the kitty guestbook back at the Very Adorable Kuntry Kabin. To profess registering this feeling while not 20 minutes down a path from the blacktop might strike the reader as meretricious and unearned. But that’s okay. Whatever it is, we are glad to stay dumb with it for 10 full minutes more, until the baby starts to cry and we head back to the road.”

So his point is that even though…You know, he says, “three days of hordes, traffic, and spectacle hunting.” Even though that is all present there, what do we really want when we go to a natural place? Things that you can still get here. And we see how that’s echoed back up here, in that first paragraph that I read to you, where he says, even though all this stuff has happened…He talks about the park’s fog-cloaked valleys, he talks about the ridge top views, he talks about the red spruce, and he talks about how the ground-level ozone is decreasing. So he’s hinting at that point up here, as well. So even though all of these sentences, like I said, are meticulously conjoined with his topic, which is that it’s completely overrun, there’s also hints of his larger point of the piece that come through here as well.

Now, I’m trying to see…Ah, okay. So this one here, this is from “Granta.” I’m not sure how many of you guys know “Granta.” I’m gonna drop this in here. “Granta” is a very literary magazine, as in it’s actually, like, a literary magazine as opposed to a consumer magazine, and they cover a lot of different things. But they do also cover travel, but they do it in a very literary way. So I wanted to share this with you guys because I know you often talk about description and physical description, and flowery description as a kind of literary endeavor. So this is a piece about…The title is “Vinyl Road Trip,” and it’s kind of around music and, particularly, old vinyl music. And in this part, the author is talking about a drive and describing Long Island. Okay.

“I drove out of Manhattan in a rented Ford to visit my father’s grave at Beth David Cemetery in Elmont, which is one of those suburbs of Queens that blurs into Long Island. I was last here seven years ago, at his funeral, and, predictably, as the lack of sense of direction is one of the few things that I unmistakably shared with my father, I couldn’t find his grave. I wandered around the fancier parts of the cemetery, the tombs and vaults, some of which have windows, ‘for the dead to look out,’ as my father said when I drove him and my stepmother out to the cemetery to see their death plot a couple of years before he died. The comedian and provocateur Andy Kaufman is buried here, despite the rumors that he faked his own death. I don’t see his grave, and I couldn’t find my father’s, even with the photocopied map that an anxious woman at reception had furnished me with. She’d looked my father up on the computer system and scrawled a yellow blot with Magic Marker on the map. ‘He’s right here,’ she said. Except that he wasn’t.”

So this is, as he says right up front, it’s a road trip. It’s one of these things where you’re wandering from place to place, where you have sort of a destination in mind, but it’s also about the stops, but in a different way than that, obviously, piece that we just looked at. Right? So some of the things that are happening here, you’ll see this great use of specific detail. Right? A rented Ford, Beth David Cemetery in Elmont, you know, the fancier parts of the cemetery with tombs and vaults, some of which have windows for the dead to look out. Okay? But there’s also this sense here of loss and of being lost, and even of mystery, right, that Andy Kaufman may have faked his own death. That even though he had the X on the map with Magic Marker, he still couldn’t find it. And that’s part of what this road trip is about. It’s part of tracing this author’s father and the musical legacy. And so this description, again, even though he’s talking very clearly and specifically about this graveyard, it’s completely infused with these senses and with the point of his piece, of loss and being lost, and questioning, and mystery. Okay?

So with that, I want to let you guys go. But I hope that you’ve seen from this webinar and, like I said, I really recommend diving back into those pieces and giving them a good read with your reading-as-a-writer hat on, as opposed to reading as a reader. Sometimes you have to do it twice to do that.

First, you need to read it as a reader. And then once you know what it’s about, you can go back and read it as a writer. But I really encourage you to look back at some of these pieces now with your reading-as-a-writer hat on and see how the description, how the mentions, how what’s chosen for inclusion and what’s not chosen for inclusion that could be there…That’s something that I love to look at, “What are all of the other things that this writer could have said about this place, about this person, about this meal, about this journey, but didn’t say? And why did they not say them?”

I really invite you to read, not just going back and rereading these pieces, but also to read some other pieces, and particularly pieces by, you know, great writers and outlets with heavy editing. Because there, you’re gonna see what it looks like when an editor really gets involved and really questions the writer about every single word. So that’s where you’re gonna find some great examples of these.

So thank you guys so much for joining me. And since it’s the end of day on Friday for those of us on the East Coast, I want to wish you guys a great weekend as well, and I will see you all again soon.

Journalistic Detail and Why You Need It Transcript

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This week we are doing the first webinar in this series. It’s gonna be five webinars on journalistic detail. Now, the thing about journalistic detail is that you may have never ever heard this word before, but this term rather, and that’s absolutely fine because I’ve made it up. And I made it up for a reason, which is that there are certain terms that editors and other folks in the editorial industry use to talk about what they want and what they’re looking for or what they think that you aren’t doing that often don’t overlap with the same ways that writers, especially writers who maybe haven’t gone to journalism school and gotten briefed in that setting on a lot of these terms.

These are terms that writers don’t understand in the same way that editors do, and I don’t know if any of you on the call are familiar with this book, but there’s a book called ”The Unbearable Lightness of Being” and it wasn’t originally written in English, so I can’t necessarily… And I don’t speak the language it was written in, so I can’t testify to how good the translation is.

But in the book, there’s this concept of motifs that comes up throughout the relationships of the main characters. And the idea is that every word that a person hears has different meanings for each person. So as I was just discussing in Milan Kundera’s book, ”The Unbearable Lightness of Being” different words have different meanings to each person and they make this very clear throughout the book by talking about motifs, that a word has certain motifs like in a song that repeat over and over again when they hear it, that repeat throughout their lives. So perhaps a ball might mean one thing to you as a child, then mean something else to you when you get a dog, it means something entirely different to you if your dog dies because they run out into the street to chase that ball. So that concept of the red ball will carry all these layers of meanings for you.

And a lot of the words the editors use when they talk to writers carry a lot of meaning for those editors. Maybe they use them a lot in their day to day work in their editorial office. Maybe they learn them in depth in journalism school. Maybe it’s a word that they get harped on by their boss a lot, but those words don’t mean so much to the person hearing them. And the vein in which a lot of this comes up is like I intimated earlier when editors aren’t so happy with what you’ve done, they might give feedback that doesn’t mean the same thing to you as it means to them. They might give feedback that even when you institute it, you aren’t providing what they’re looking for and then they either come back to you with more edits and feel frustrated or they just killed a piece.

And so one of the reasons that we’re gonna spend five whole webinar weeks on looking at journalistic detail is that this is an area where there’s a lot of these feelings, a lot of feelings from editors that they aren’t getting it. A lot of feelings from writers that they don’t understand what it is that editors want from them. They don’t understand what editors mean when they use words like “be more specific” or “I need more detail.” So I’ve come up with this idea of journalistic detail that we’re gonna explore today about what that is, but also we’re gonna explore in the next webinars in this series so that you understand not only what it is that editors are looking for, but also how exactly to implement it and how to implement it in a number of different situations.

So in this webinar, which I’m kind of thinking of is the intro to journalistic detail, we’re gonna look at what I mean exactly by journalistic detail and we’re gonna look at also some of the unexpected benefits besides just what I was saying about editors will like you more, that journalistic detail is gonna do for you. And then we’re gonna break down some real world examples so you can see how you can take something that doesn’t have journalistic detail right now and add it.

And I had a really interesting question yesterday in a coaching call, which was that, you know, okay, well if I add all of that, then it’s gonna take up more space and I need to hit this workout or I need to keep this short. And that’s a really great point. I think a lot of times writers, especially when you’re trying to write something short, whether it’s a news brief for a magazine or some other short piece or your pitch that you’re trying to keep to a certain length so that editors will be able to read it in one page on their screen while they’re on their phone or their computer.

The thing is though, that there’s often something else that can very easily go, which is not adding to what you’re writing, and in fact, probably detracting from it a bit that we can replace the journalistic detail. And so something that I hope that you’ll come to see, if not today, probably not today because this is gonna be new for a number of you. So I hope that you can come to see it. If not today, then by the end of the series to get a grasp of where you need to use journalistic detail, where it’s helpful, and then that will allow you to see those places where the sentences that you’re currently writing aren’t adding anything to your piece and you can remove those to allow space for this detail. So throughout the rest of the webinars in this series, we’re gonna be doing a lot of primary source examination, so that means we’re going to go right to the magazines. We’re gonna look at magazine articles and we’re going to look at how this journalistic detail is used in a number of different settings.

Today I’m gonna give you just some examples where we’re gonna walk through together, kind of taking something that doesn’t have journalistic detail and then adding it so we’re not gonna be using magazines as resources so much today as we will in the further or the later on calls in this series. And so when I say breakdown and real world examples, I have a couple that I’ve already prepared for you. I have a couple that I came up with, kind of the watered down version that we’re gonna then make tighter, is just another word that editors love to use. Right?

So we’re gonna start with the more, the version that could use help and then I’m gonna walk you through some stages to make it even better. And if we have time or if people don’t have examples that they want to choose to look at, we can look at some. I’ve got a Delta magazine pulled up in the back, but I’d really love to also get some examples from you guys where you can tell me something, a sentence, it can be maybe a sentence that you have in a pitch right now that you’re working on or it can just be an idea that you have and we’ll walk through how to beef that up. So that’s what we’re gonna go through today.

So as we get into talking about journalistic detail, obviously the first question is what on earth do I mean by this? I’ve given you kind of a little bit of an intimation in here about where I’m going that, you know, it has to do with detail, it has to do with the type of detail that editors think of as being specific enough, but the whole point of this webinar is that you don’t know what that means, right? So I wanna explore this in more detail.

So I wanna start by giving you an example and I will actually even do this up here on the screen so that you guys can see what I’m talking about. So after the example, I’ll talk about some different ways that you can beef something up with different types of language that will create journalistic detail, but I think it’s better to start with an example first you can watch me do it.

So this example is an idea that I had. I was out walking today and I was just thinking of a couple different kind of essay-type ideas that we could look at as examples today. And so something that I walked by was this bookstore and it’s a bookstore specifically for kids and I think it might even be all in French, which might make it not so useful for me personally. But there’s an entire lovely bookstore just dedicated to kids books a couple blocks from my house. And I was walking by and thinking, you know, oh, well, this is great. I’ve never seen this bookstore before. This is great because we have so many kids that we always need presents for.

Now, if I had that sentence, we have so many kids, I’ll make the text bigger in one second, that we always need presents for. That’s not a super interesting sentence, okay? Now, not only is it not a super interesting sentence, but it doesn’t have personality, it doesn’t have tone, it doesn’t have a lot of the things that make writing delightful to read. So one of the issues here with this sentence, let me get rid of the rest of this, is right here. We have so many kids, particularly so many, okay? And then also kids, you know, we could maybe make that more specific as well. But the point of this particular communication right now is that I found this bookstore and that it’s great because we have so many kids that we need to get presents for. So the point is the multitude of the kids that I need a whole bookstore nearby that I know I can go to whenever I need a present for a kid because there’s so many.

So the question really to me, the first thing with my editor hat on that jumps out of this is why. Like I don’t understand why you need a whole bookstore. How many kids are we really talking about? So the first thing I could say is, you know, that we have a lot of nieces and nephews. That’s slightly more specific, right? I’ve said what kind of kids. Because the important thing is that I can’t spell, but the important thing is that they’re not my kids, right? I’m not saying I have five kids, I don’t have kids. So this is being more specific already. We have a lot of nieces and nephews.

Now, what’s left here that could be fixed is a lot, okay? Now the way that I could pump this up even further is to say, you know, “Between my husband and myself and ‘real’ nieces and nephews versus the children of our best friends and the extended Indian family that makes everyone no matter how distantly related a niece or nephew. We have 47 kids to buy presents for on a regular basis.” Now this gets into what I pointed out earlier, which is that these sentences get long. But if I was, say, to be writing a funny story about, you know, buying books in a bookstore when I don’t have kids of my own, but I know way too much about kids books and it’s kind of creepy, this sentence sets the scene so much better because not only am I explaining what I mean by a lot or so many kids who exactly these kids are, but I’m also injecting the tone that’s gonna go into this story. I’m setting the scene by the choice of numbers, by the choice of nouns, even by the choice of adjectives here, right?

So you’ll notice one other thing that’s going on the sentence is that it’s not really replete with adjectives. I do say kind of, you know, this real and I say extended Indian family, but I haven’t said, for instance, you know, the exterior of the bookstore was shiny and bright like a freshly polished penny or something. I’m not going so far on what sometimes I’ve heard people call like the flowery detail or the flowery description or something like that. I have chosen a fact, and this is why we call it journalistic detail, okay? I have chosen a fact about what I’m talking about that elucidates and gives tone to the piece.

So like I said, I’ve used numbers here, but I’ve mostly used a fact and I’ve used multiple facts actually here. So I said between us, I could have just said, you know, that my husband has through his extended family, this many, but then I’m also kind of bringing in that idea of the best friends. And I could even say rather than best friends, I could say, you know, between and the children of the brides, the seven bridesmaids in my wedding, right? We could even say that. That would be even more detailed and kind of also hilarious in setting the scene, right? I did have seven bridesmaids in my wedding and I’m happy to explain why it’s Hudson’s fault anyone who asks.

So now we’ve got quite a few numbers in here, but we’ve also got specifics, so it’s not just the ”nieces and nephews” and then I’m leaving the reader to wonder why are they ”nieces and nephews?” Why aren’t they real nieces or nephews, you know. Why can’t they be, you know, and the reader just kind of, they stop. They don’t understand. Why is it ”nieces and nephews?” So I have to, in there, clarify why I’m saying that we don’t have a family of 12 brothers and sisters each that each have four kids or two kids. It’s created the situation, okay?

So one of the ways that you run into the need for journalistic detail is when somebody other than yourself does not understand a piece of background that is necessary for the sentence to be comprehended that you have. So this is something interesting that I see a lot, which is that people will write something and I see this a lot in pitch letters because I look at pitch letters but I’m sure that it’s also happening in pieces. People will write particularly in the intro for their pitch letter and they will talk about a place that clearly has significance for them, that they clearly think has significance for the readers of the magazine that they’re pitching this place to, that they clearly think has significance in terms of it’s new or it’s very exciting or it’s something that’s caused them to wanna pitch this place.

But I as the reader and especially with my editor hat on, I don’t understand what that enthusiasm is. I don’t understand what that significance is. So, you know, sometimes I’m seeing pitches where you’ve said, I’ll take an example that I’m actually gonna dive into a little bit more later on into the piece. So there is this island off, I wouldn’t say off the coast of Japan, but there is an island in the South Pacific where it’s used to belong to the US and now it belongs to Japan. They kind of ”gave it back” a little while ago, and let’s say that I want to pitch a story about that place.

So I could say 50 years ago, the Bonin Islands, which can only be reached by a 25-hour ferry ride from Tokyo, formally changed hands from the United States to Japan. The American heritage is all but gone, save the 8-foot long flag on 4th generation Nathaniel Taylor’s truck permanently parked on the main street in proud protest. I’m using details there. I’m saying 50 years ago, the island changed hands. It’s 25-hour ferry ride from Tokyo. There’s an 8-foot long flag painted on the side of this American guy who still lives there struck. Those are all details that I’m including. But if the piece that I’m pitching is just about how this is a wonderful tropical island getaway, those details don’t have anything to do with it.

So it’s important that we don’t only choose details that are, like I said, sort of flowery description or numbers that show something, that something is historic, that something is a trend. You know, we could say a number of how many visitors are visiting a certain place. We could say a number of the year that a certain thing is opened. We wanna use these numbers and we wanna use adjectives and we want to use facts, but we have to also have them wrapped into a larger theme. So again, this is a big concept and that’s why we’re spending five whole webinars on it. But this is what I want you to get across, that journalistic detail means that you are using specific facts that may or may not be descriptive or simply facts that incorporate clear nouns. So whether it’s the nieces and nephews or the number of nieces and nephews or how they aren’t exactly our nieces and nephews and that all of those facts that you have chosen to include tie completely into the point of your piece.

And one of the best things about this, like I mentioned earlier, is that on the surface, journalistic detail will help you as a writer in your career and to make more money by writing better pitches. It will make your pitches more clear, but more importantly, editors get so many pitches. We hear this all the time. However, what we don’t hear all the time is how exactly editors are going through and triaging those pitches. Now, there’s a quote that that I like to use a lot and now I’ve heard other people start using a lot. It comes from somebody who used to be at Sunset and he’s actually, I believe, at Airbnb Magazine right now, I just heard from somebody. And at the book passage conference maybe four years ago, someone asked, “How long does it take you to get back to a pitch.”

And you know, all the editors started looking around like with crazy deer eyes and this guy bravely got up to answer this question and he said, ”If it’s a yes, 15 minutes, if it’s a no, 30 minutes. But if it’s a maybe, indefinitely.” And the thing about that is that so many of you, and I hear this all the time, are getting in that maybe category and it’s not just so many of you, it’s so many of everybody, you know, like this quote shows that maybe category is this black hole. And part of the reason that the maybe category is a bit of a black hole is that there are many different reasons that you fall into the maybe category.

The first and foremost that is a positive one is that the editor likes your idea and wants to figure out if they have space for it before they get back to you and say a yes. So that’s a great maybe. What else can happen though is that the editor likes your idea, but is not sure about your ability to carry it off. Now what happens is sometimes that has to do with the idea. Sometimes they’re not sure if the thing that you wanna pitch them is important enough for their readers. Sometimes they are not sure if the thing that you wanna pitch them is feasible to report on if you can actually get the information you or another person.

And sometimes they’re not sure if you have enough clarity around what the idea is that you can effectively put that piece into words. Now this is the area where journalistic detail really comes in and the fourth reason is that they might think that the idea is great, but that they aren’t so confident in your writing. In that even more is where this concept of journalistic detail comes in in terms of how your pitches and how the responses to your pitches can change once you start incorporating it.

So what happens is that as editors are doing this triage process and they get to some pitch that they are not sure about, a variety of things happen. And the first one really is those first two reasons I said, is this idea even feasible? Do I really think that this person can physically report this idea? That’s usually the first thing they go through because as any editor who is a wonderful human being, which most of them are because they get paid less than freelance writers and they choose to spend all of their days making people’s writing better. So any editor who’s a good human being will tell you they can help with the writing. They can edit it, they can give you guidance, but what it’s hard for them to help with is the quality of the idea. So they will check that first.

So using journalistic detail will also help you here because if you are able to give that editor more understanding of what is so special to you about this place, about this idea, about this person that you wanna profile, about this trend that you’re sure is the next big thing. If you are able to give them details that really show them that, then they will be more confident in the idea.

Now, the second part is that if you are in a position where for some reason or another they are not sure if you can carry the piece off because of your abilities, showing that you can incorporate details, showing that you can incorporate details in a journalistic way, as in the way that editors would like to see them, will show you that even will show them rather that even if they are not 100% sure about you, about this idea, about whatever it is, that you have some basic chops, they call it, some basic skill set to report the information that is gonna be the most interesting. Even if they might have to put in a hand to help you organize it or help you select the details.

So what this means is that showing that you can spot, that you can physically observe important, interesting details in and of itself, even if the editor wants to take the story in a completely different direction and you have to go out and do some more reporting, even if the editor doesn’t love this exact idea or they can’t use it, for instance, because they’ve covered this destination too recently. Showing them that you have an eye for details goes a very long way in terms of the editor thinking about this as a maybe and putting on the back burner and being receptive to the next pitch that you put out versus wanting to reply to this pitch, which is a maybe as a no, just so that you don’t send them more pitches, okay?

So this isn’t…I’ve mentioned this in a couple of other webinars and I’ve talked to some folks about this on the phone and when I speak as well. But there’s an unfortunate nefarious thing out there right now where some, I see this predominantly among very, very young editors, but some editors are sending sort of snarky but covertly snarky, so it’s not always clear responses to people saying that they aren’t working with freelance writers or they aren’t taking new freelance writers or something like this in order to get a writer that they don’t wanna work with off their back.

So if you get one of those responses, it’s a clear sign that something in your pitch hit a motif for this editor. You said something, maybe you called the Mrs. and they’re 22 and that felt weird. You said something that struck them the wrong way. So if you get a response like that, you should absolutely go back to your pitch and see what’s going on because if we list in the database that they take freelancers, they absolutely take freelancers. We check those bylines really clearly and closely and regularly as well.

So having journalistic detail on the surface, we’ll do this great thing for you. It will make editors notice your pitches more, it will put them in a…puts you in a different category in their mind. It will put you in the category of a professional writer rather than somebody who maybe hasn’t been writing and is sending them a pitch, maybe somebody who’s a blogger, who has a very different approach to what detail and reporting and journalism really mean.

It will put you in a different category in their head. But even if this pitch doesn’t work, they will look more favorably on your future pitches. But my absolute most favorite thing about journalistic detail is actually what it does for you mentally when you are writing. And this is when you are writing a pitch or when you’re writing a full piece. This extends to any amount of writing that you might do. And that is that it makes you never have to wonder what you need to include in your pitch or on your piece.

Now, some of you may have heard this before, perhaps not. It depends how much you hang out with kind of, you know, on deadline newsroom journalists or people who are often interviewed by on deadline newsroom journalists. So somebody that I know, for instance, who recently happened to get tangled up in the issue of cleaning up the water in Flint, Michigan. He is a professor and he and some of student’s kind of volunteered to help the government create a way to figure out most effectively where they needed to go to identify which houses needed help with getting their water back on track. And then suddenly he starts getting calls from all these journalists to interview him for their pieces.

So we were sitting at dinner and he just got up and left quickly. And then he came back and apologized because “The New York Times” had called him. And he said though that he felt kind of weird on these phone calls because they clearly had a specific thing that they were looking for from him. They were looking for a specific quote people often say. And he felt like there were more things that he wanted to tell them, but they were just looking for that one quote.

Now what’s happening here and what happens with a lot of these journalists who have daily deadlines, whether it’s travel or hard news or whatever, is that they know exactly what they want to put in their piece and they go out and gather information accordingly. So rather than really diving deep into a whole subject, they have a very thin slice of the angle, if you will, or the focus of the article that they’re going to be writing. And they know they need somebody who has a contrary opinion. They need somebody who was there just when it happened. They need somebody authoritative to speak on the greater significance of this thing. They know exactly what they need to fill in. And so they go out quite, you know, as this professor put it, narrow-mindedly seeming to get these pieces of information.

Now it can feel, especially in travel writing like this practice is very antagonistic to your goal. If your goal is to go out there and experience a destination and see what there is to cover and then put together pieces accordingly, but when you wrap in this idea that with each destination we can write dozens of stories in so many different formats. And for so many different magazines, you see that each story is a very thin slice.

So if you have already gotten to that point where you have the story which is a thin slice, then you’ve gotten to the point where this comes up that you need specific types of information. So I’m not saying that in general as you’re out there in the world as a travel writer, you are only looking for these very specific types of information, but rather once you have a single specific story that you’re writing, that’s where this comes up.

And journalistic detail, choosing the facts that are specific in their nouns and adjectives that illustrate the point of focus of your article, that is the type of questions that these news reminders are out there asking. They’re asking for those details. They are asking questions in order to get the person to say a quote, the touches on what they wanna touch on in their piece. They are gathering these journalistic details very specifically like they have, you know, like a top 10 places to visit in New York lists that they’re on hunting for. So what happens is that once you come around to this concept of using only journalistic details to fill the sentences of your pieces mixed in, of course, with quotes, then you start to become more of this hunter when you’re writing the piece or when you’re writing the pitch. This is after you figured out what the idea is that you’re gonna write in the first place, okay?

And so what this means is that we talked already. We’ve got, I think, 10 or 12, 13 maybe webinars on article, nuts and bolts that will show you the structure and help you see what you need to hunt for in the different types of pieces. But the types of details, the types of facts that you’re choosing to include, that comes into the purview of journalistic detail and learning what counts, what facts are the right ones to include? So what happens is that once you begin to really practice writing journalistic detail, looking for journalistic detail, letting all of the other words in your piece slough off until this is what remains, it’s very clear what you need to write. It’s very clear what sentences need to go into that pitch.

And this is a question that I get a lot when we’re doing live workshops, whether it’s like our full week boot camp or the weekend idea fest or Pitchapalooza. And somebody has an idea and we’re kind of working it back and forth and then I just say the pitch back to them. Like I say, ”Well, we could do it like this.” And then I just say the pitch. People always say, ”Well, I can’t do it in just 20 seconds like you do.” But the point is that when you’re looking only for journalistic details and when you realize that you don’t need very many because they are so powerful, because they show what you’re trying to explain and all the rest of the sentences that were replacing, you see the same thing. You see that you only need a couple details and then you can throw together that pitch or that short news brief very quickly and very easily. And that’s what I want for you guys.

So what I wanna do is to talk a little bit about the real linchpin here, which is that in order to be able to select the super clear details, those super clear facts that show, rather than tell what you want your readers to understand, you have to be very clear on what you want to show them, what you want them to understand. And so I’d like to do a little bit of an exercise here if you guys will follow along with me for this. So I have an example that I can kind of do an exercise on with myself, but I’d really love to work with some of you guys who are here live dropping some things in the chat box for me to use as well.

So the idea here is that I’d love to take a story idea that you may have, that you may be working on. You may have already pitched it. Maybe you haven’t pitched it yet. I know some of you on the call have a number of these that you’ve kind of been carrying around that are ideas that you really, really love, that you wanna find a home for. And what I wanna work through with these examples is how to take something which is a topic or a concept and turn it into a story because I think where the ball often drops in terms of being able to spot what is the journalistic detail that you have to include because you have a very rigid story concept is that you have a topic idea that you wanna pitch and you don’t have the specific story as in beginning, middle, end story.

So I’m gonna show an example of this because it really…the example that I have I think is gonna be a really helpful one for a lot of you because it’s a situation that even I found myself in. I went to this place. This place was great. I was there for maybe 10, 12 days. A lot of things happened. You know, it was a very new place for me and I’m trying to figure out for one specific market, how do I make that into one story and how do I not just tell her, ”You should do a story about this place because it’s really cool and people don’t really go there.”

Okay. So that’s what we’re…the example that I’m gonna use for you guys. So what I love is as I’m going through that or if you guys are already thinking about it, to drop in the chat box something that you might have yourself and McKenzie, I think that you must have some Alaska ones or some other ones that we were working on, early on we were working on your story ideas, that might be a good one for this. Like a couple ideas that you were feeling stuck on that we’ve maybe had to rework or something like this.

So I’m gonna start with the example that I have, and like I said, you guys who are on the call live, if you have some that we can workshop together that you’d be willing to share, I’d love to talk through those as well. All right, so here’s the example that I have. So when I was at the book passage conference, you have this opportunity to do nine hours of workshops, which is pretty much the same as like an intensive weekend long workshop, the ones that we do at our house. You have nine hours of workshops that you can do with several different kind of editors or…and then one of them is a blogger, another one is a book author. And one of the ones that I went to is led by Katharine Hamm and Chris Reynolds from the “LA Times,” who are really lovely, wonderful people. And Chris is an actual full-time travel writer for a newspaper. He must be like the last of his species. And Catherine is the travel editor for the “LA Times.”

And so in their workshop they, as homework at the end of the first day, having told people nothing about what a pitch is, what a pitch includes, how they prefer to receive pitches, none of this, they had talked all day about, you know, what it is to be a travel writer, about reporting these kinds of different things, but for homework, they sent everybody out to write a pitch. And I am, as I know many of you are, somebody who loves to follow a brief and a format and so I was like, ”Well, I don’t know how you want the pitch to be. I know how I write pitches.” And a lot of other people were just thinking, “I don’t even know what a pitch is supposed to be. What am I supposed to do?”

So we were all unleashed with this idea of go write a pitch. And what happened was that I completely froze. And I’m sure that this will sound funny to some of you who’ve taken workshops with me, but I completely froze about how to come up with a pitch for them. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about what it was that I was stuck on. And I was really attached to this trip.

And I know this will ring true for a lot of you because I see this come up a lot. I was really attached to this trip and this place Ogasawara, which is this island, like I mentioned, that it’s a 25-hour ferry ride from Tokyo. I was attached to it because I thought, okay, ”Well, since the workshop is run by the ‘LA Times’ people, I’m gonna come up with a pitch for the ‘LA Times’ people.” So I looked at what the ‘LA Times’ covers, you know, they had already talked about it and a bit as well in terms of what their geographic areas are and what areas they like to cover. I’ve known Katherine for a couple of years, so I know kind of what story she does or doesn’t like and I knew that this destination was great for her. But what I kept running into problems with, and you can tell even from that part that I read you earlier of this like protopitch that I worked on, was that I kept running into problems with just focusing on why people should go there. Why Ogasawara, why this place is interesting and, you know, the pitch that I was working on just kind of was like a list of all this stuff.

You know, I talked about visitors take all of their meals in the ends, leaving the restaurants for the locals. Menus handwritten each day or simply announced on arrival may highlight anything from shark liver sashimi to kimchi udon, Ogasawara’s version of Hawaii’s cultural mash-ups, spam musubi. One of the favorite local bars blends the faded decadent emerald wallpaper of an absinthe bar in Paris’ Left Bank with the musical paraphernalia of an Austin dive bar. I had all this detail, but I didn’t know what I was pitching.

And so even as I got to that paragraph where I say, ”What I’m gonna tell the readers,” I just said, ”I’ll walk readers through my journey, beginning with the bureaucracy around even getting a birth on the ferry to discovering that the Bonin islands aren’t just for whale watching, Galapagos-level biodiversity and hikes through vivid Pacific Theater World War II history. The Ogasawarans themselves are often fugitives from the constraints of Japanese society come for the opportunity to finally express themselves.”

So this is this pitch that I hated that I wrote that I didn’t share at the workshop because I knew that I didn’t have a story. And I knew that I just had a bunch of things in here that were description, award details, but there was nothing tying them together. And then I was walking. I was driving. I think I was in the car the other day, stuck in traffic and suddenly it came to me that the story here is not about just why a person should go to this place. The story has the place as the protagonist, it has these Bonin islands which are also called Ogasawara as the protagonist in terms of having found, in a very Japanese way, a balance between tourism and a lack of over tourism or whatever it is that you wanna call it. You can tell I haven’t written the pitch because these words are very raw.

But what I, as my brain was just percolating around being really frustrated that I couldn’t come up with an idea that would be great for Katherine about this place that I’m sure she would love to cover, it came to me that what’s special about this place is not, you know, that you can have the beach all to yourself or the crazy food or any of these things. What’s special about this place really, the real point is that this place has this amazing balance. And some of it is because the people there are, like I said, fugitives from the constraints of Japanese society, so they are a little bit different. It’s not the rest of Japan. Some of it is because the ferry only comes once every three days and it takes 25 hours to get there, so only that many people can even get on the islands. But a lot of it is just because of the way that the place has shaped these people.

So for instance, they come out every single time the ferry leaves, any local that has time jumps in their boat or they go to the dock and they send the boat off, every two or three days, every single person on the island who can does this. And the folks on the boat will actually drive their own boats along next to the ferry boat, out to the end of the harbor, waving all the while and even jumping off the boats in these like beautiful displays for the visitors. So the real point that I need to change the story to be around is how the people of Ogasawara have this balance between being a primary visitor destination and still enjoying and loving the visitors. And that’s what the story needs to be about.

So I’ve sloughed off all of that other stuff for the pitch of needing to say that it’s the 50 anniversary of it becoming Japanese rather than American, how long you need to go to get there from Tokyo. All I need to talk about is that send off and then say, you know, and in this piece I will include information for visitors that explains how to get there, this is and then the other thing. But I will focus on showcasing the personality is of the island that create this atmosphere. And that’s the pitch. That would be the whole pitch. I would start by talking about that send off. I would say in a 1300-word piece, you know, I will highlight the personalities on the island, showing how they’ve achieved a sense of balance and I’ll also include this detail for visitors on how to get there, where to stay, where to take their meals, etc.

The pitch that I have sitting that I wrote before is like more than 200 words and the reason that I didn’t wanna read it for them or obviously like I said, it was because they didn’t like it, but also it was too long. Her brief was to write a 100-word pitch. And now that I know what my story would be, I could sit here and I could write that In 100 words. Once you know, once you’re very clear on the one line version of what your story is, it allows you to sit down and put that together in as few or as many words as you need it to be. So I hope that that is helpful, and let me know also in the chat box. I can pace my crappy pitch that I don’t want to send into the chat box or put it on one of the slides if it would be useful for you guys. I’ll just pop it in here below so that people can see it later in the video.

And like I said, I’m calling this a crappy pitch. It has a lot of details, but like I said, they are not journalistic details because they don’t tie in, so they might seem like they are specifics or like they are focused, but the problem is that they’re not focused into the topic of what the story will become and that’s what makes them not be journalistic details, you guys. So I hope that that makes it clear. And I’ll even as I put this on the slide here so that you guys can see in the video later, I’ll even highlight kind of some of the things that don’t count. Some of the things that are bad detail that weren’t helpful for me to include because they don’t actually really count as journalistic detail. There we go. We’ve moved this down.

So you know, I’ve got this 8-foot flag and I’ve got fourth generation Nathaniel Taylor’s truck and I’ve got 50 years ago, I’ve got 25-hour ferry ride, and then I’ve got a ton in here, right? I’ve got the, you know, the different things that you eat. I’ve got this description and this kind of metaphor here of this meets that. But none of these details which in the right piece would work in the right pitch or the right piece, none of these would work as journalistic details, but they aren’t really journalistic details in this setting because they don’t tie into the story that I’m telling. They don’t tie into it because I didn’t have one when I sat down to write this, right.

So I could go different ways. I could make a piece about why you have to visit Ogasawara this year because it’s the 50th anniversary of the handover and they’re doing all these special things. Then some of this here at the beginning might matter. I could do a piece about how the American heritage lived on and focus on, you know, how you can still find these interesting cultural mashups between America and Japan and maybe even highlight the World War II history. George Bush, I think the first George Bush, his plane went down just off of these islands. There’s all sorts of interesting there. I could do a piece that’s just about that, and then this sentence would matter. I could do a piece about the food that’s popped up in these islands because of their scarce access to resources because the ferry comes not very often. And then this sentence would make sense. Or I could talk about just the completely crazy design and ambiance that’s sprung up on this island because of those refugees, not refugees, but kind of fugitives from the constraints of Japanese society who have come to Ogasawara to create what they would like to see. But that’s four different pieces that these four different details in here are all touching on. So when I look at this with my editor hat on, I just say, I don’t know where this person is going with this because there’s so many details that are trying to be poignant, but they’re not unified.

So I hope that this example, and especially me putting it up here and highlighting it can help you see how some of these things are popping up in your own writing. That you do have these details that are great, but there are details that serve a different story, that don’t serve the story that you’re telling right now.

So Donna has asked about the Colonia Guadalupe neighborhood and San Miguel de Allende, Mexico, is the city’s official art district because of Muros en Blanco, a program that has put more than 100 murals on the areas, blank walls in recent years.

Now my first question would be, Donna, what exactly is this piece? What do you hope this piece is about? Because I think that here, you know, if you are writing a piece where you’re gonna talk about perhaps the maybe interviewing the person who has started this program or if you want to set up the neighborhood as in our district to do kind of like a tour of it, this could potentially work, but what I would wanna see here is if we were making a piece that was more about how this city had become, you know, an art capital or why if, for instance, these are two different things. If we’re writing about like almost a trend piece about San Miguel de Allende becoming an art capital, that’s different than saying if you’re going to San Miguel de Allende, you wanna stay in the art district. So those are two different things.

So what I want to say here is that if we’re talking about how San Miguel de Allende became an art capital, I think we could lead with this sentiment, but if we’re talking about if you’re going to San Miguel de Allende, the art district is where you want to stay. This particular detail doesn’t work quite so well.

And let me give you some totally made up examples of what you could do instead that would make that tighter. So if we want to say that you should stay in this neighborhood because it’s the art district, then we need to pick a detail that show, okay, cool, I’ll come back to the Donna, but let me just finish this example. So if we’re gonna show why you should stay in the art district, then we need to pick a detail that shows that the art district of San Miguel de Allende has X, but the other areas don’t. And that if you’re coming to San Miguel de Allende for X, you will only get it if you stay in the art district. So that would be how we could change it, if that was the topic.

Now, Donna said she thinks the story is how it happened, including an interview with the woman who launched the program. So if that’s the case, then I would actually think if the point of the story of the pitch that we’re writing is that we want to talk about how it became such. I might even wanna go to show a detail that shows the impact, so we could say that there is this Muros en Blanco program, but how can we show that the Muros en Blanco program has made it the artistic. Can we show that the other artists claim that they have been inspired by this program to be based there? Can we show that people have created art that’s based on it? How can we kind of show that not just at the Muros en Blanco program happened, but that it has led to this resurgence? So those are some ways that I might tweak that to make it even better.

So that’s what I’ve got for you guys today and I’m really excited to continue the series.

So thank you guys so much for joining me today and I look forward to chatting with you guys and seeing your accountability emails come in. Thanks, guys.

Weaving Journalistic Detail into Descriptions of People Transcript

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Today we’re gonna continue our series on journalistic detail that we began a couple of weeks back. And we’ve looked so far at what journalistic detail is and what it means for you, and I’m gonna recap that for those of you who are joining us for this webinar as your first foray into the series. But we’re also going to…we also have, rather, looked at how to incorporate journalistic detail into short articles. Right now we’re starting to move into how to use journalistic detail into different types of descriptions. We’re gonna look this week at descriptions of people, and next week get descriptions of places and then how to specifically create a sense of ambiance or place through the details that you’re choosing to share, whether that’s in descriptions of people or just kind of in the pervasive tone and word choice within your piece.

In particular today, we’re gonna follow a format that we started with a little bit last week and that we’ve also done in the past with our article nuts and bolts series, which is that I’m gonna go back and look again, like I said, for those of you who are just joining us for this webinar first in this year in journalistic detail, and what that is and also particularly why it matters to you. And there’s a lot of really big benefits to boning up on this as a writer and especially as a writer who wants to work in an editorial setting, but also if you wanna work in a content marketing setting, it’s really gonna set you apart to have these skills. And then we’re gonna look at kind of what are some of the challenges specific to this space. Last week for instance, we talked about how with shorter articles there’s more difficulty because you really don’t have a lot of options. You have to be very, very scarce in where you choose to incorporate details, but there’s also some interesting pitfalls about doing it with people which we’ll look into.

And then I’ve queued up a bunch of examples for us from a few different areas. I’ve queued some that are more in the vein of a straight profile piece where we’re looking at an individual person. I’ve pulled some things out of settings like “Afar” or “National Geographic.” I have to say I was really shocked when I was on “National Geographic’s” website today. The “National Geographic” travel website is so full of partner content, I couldn’t believe it. I wanna know who writes those partner content pieces and how more of you can be getting your words up on “National Geographic.” Anyway, so we’re gonna look at “National Geographic.” We’ve also got some… I pulled up some things from “Afar” for you as well and a piece from “Outside” and something from “The New York Times.” They tend to be a good example for this kind of stuff, so that’s what we’ll look at when we do our examples as well.

Today, like I said, we’re gonna continue this discussion of journalistic detail. But for those of you who are new to this topic and new to this series, I wanna take a minute to talk about what I mean and then why you really need to know this because when I do our live week long events, this is a really big topic for us as we do our travel writing boot camp. Even though we talk a lot about getting ideas, getting ideas out in the field, we’re really working on how do you turn those into pitches and pieces and part of that circles down to what details have you even caught when you’re out in the field in the first place. Because you can’t include detail when you don’t have it, and that I find is often a big issue when I’m looking at people’s pitches or pieces or whatnot. That something is vague and then I say, “Okay, well, you know, we can’t say several or we can’t say something like that.” We can’t say something that kind of refers to something without being more specific. That’ll be a red flag for the editor. It’ll look like you don’t know what you’re talking about. And the person says, “Well, I don’t know.” And so I say, “Well, why is that sentence even there?”

If you don’t know how many steps it takes to get up to the temple in Kyoto, do we need to say there’s many steps. Do you wanna say how long it took you? Do you wanna say how many landings you had to go through? Do you have a sense of what the elevation that you traveled was? Because otherwise if we just say it was a long slog up the steps to the temple, what does that mean that’s different to everybody? You know, slog is a little bit of description, but what about that long? Like what does that really mean though? If somebody has, you know, a young child, that might be different than if they’re elderly or if they’re young and fit or if they’re perhaps, you know, middle age and slightly out of weight, all these things are gonna be different.

So we want to think about using details, not just later when we write them, but we wanna also, when you’re out traveling, think about details, about capturing these details. And part of capturing those details also goes back to taking notes, of course, but also taking notes with your camera. I take a lot of random photos of things just to remind myself later. So for instance, I am not there anymore but it was in Kansas City over the weekend and I went to this quite well known barbecue place. I guess it’s kind of famous, but it’s newer and I was chatting with some people who are next to me. There were some people at another table next to me that I wasn’t talking to. But I wanted to, as I was jotting down what they had said to me and sort of things I was overhearing from their conversation, I wanted to be able to have some details of how to describe them later on. Now I could have sat there and taken notes on what this guy was wearing and, you know, what he looked like and what he did and I did take a couple notes on that, but I also took some covert photos because I can go back and look in those photos once I know what I wanna write, once I know what the point of my eventual article is, and then I can pull out the details that I actually need. Because if you only take notes on details while you’re there, you don’t know exactly what details you’re gonna need later. And that’s because the thing about journalistic detail is that it’s not just about descriptive detail. It’s not just about details that illustrate something. It’s details that illustrate to the end that you are trying to accomplish with your piece.

And this in and of itself is something that I often see when…especially when I’m looking at pitches, is that there’s a lack of clarity that comes out on the page, as editors like to say, even though it’s really the screen, right, these days, but there’s a lack of clarity in terms of what your point is, and what I mean by that is what you’re trying to get across to the reader. For instance, a piece that we’re gonna look at later, and I’ll drop it here in the chat box now, in case you wanna have a scroll through, but also in case you wanna see it for later, is a really interesting profile in “Outside” actually of the writer’s uncle. But forgetting that he’s the writer’s uncle, he is a profile of a monk and a cleric who renounced his vows and his life in America and moved to a village in the Pyrenees and just studied the classics, and he just lived this small life in this village in France not helping anybody, unlike he had done up until this point for the rest of his life.

And this profile that we’re gonna look at later is a beautiful picture of this. But what I just told you was kind of the person I told you, kind of who the piece is about, but I didn’t tell you what the point of the piece is. Now in this piece, the gentleman that the profile is about has passed away and it’s almost in a way a memorial to him, but it’s also this picture of what would it be like, what is it like to just leave it all behind and go live in a beautiful village in France? What, you know, what does that do to a person? Right? And even as I say that to you, these are all esoteric kind of points, right? And this is a long piece. You can have a couple of things that you’re trying to accomplish. But at the end of the piece, the very last sentence is a quote, which is always a great way to end, as you’ve learned when I did the article nuts and bolts.

It’s a quote from a woman and she said, “He was interested in the village and everyone in it. He was a good person. He was esteemed.” And this is really the point of the piece and that’s where the first thing that I said was that it’s almost a memorial to this man. But, so if all of this piece is to say that even though he gave up on his calling or he gave up on his family to move to this place, even though it seems like he wasn’t doing very much with his life, in a certain way he was, but in this small scale, in this small life. So that means that all of the details in this piece need to serve that purpose. They need to show how he was supporting this village and the people in it, okay? And any other details that might be in there are only maybe set up for contradiction, right? So to contrast this sense of, well, he was there by himself working for days at a time translating this ancient Greek author, da, da, da. But then that’s a counterpoint to his care of the village to show that it was more than that.

So what I mean to say here is that there’s detail, there’s description, but journalistic detail is detail that tells a story, the story that we’re trying to tell them, the specific piece and that each detail that we choose needs to tie specifically into this one piece, this one slant of this one version of this story for one audience, as I talk about when I talk about that idea triangle where you’ve got the content as the base, but the other two sides of the triangle are the format and the audience, right? So this is a profile of him, kind of a profile in retrospect, that is about him as a person.

If it was different, if it was a round-up of his favorite places in the south of France, you know, not that this writer would necessarily write that, but just for instance, there’s a change to the format side of it, then the details that we would use would be different because the point of that story would be different. So the things that you can use for journalistic detail, often people rely on numbers or adjectives or examples. And when I say examples here, I mean the kind of thing that we might think of as fact or description. It might really be metaphor or simile. It might even be a small anecdote that illustrates something larger.

Now when we get into people though, these things seem a lot more difficult. At least I think so. I see that happening. And I think that’s because, you know, even when we watch, whether we’re reading novels or we’re watching TV shows that are works of fiction, some part of us knows that the characters are important, that that’s what we connect with… So for some reason coming to mind right now is this television show which has, you know, interesting mysteries that are slightly more interesting than your average, let’s call it, you know, like police prime time kind of cop drama formula. But it’s the characters that really attach you to it. And the show that I was thinking of is “Castle,” which isn’t on anymore, but it starred Nathan Fillion as a famous Mr. Novelist, perhaps the writer…and that appeals to the writer in me. But then his counterpoint is this female detective who’s really closed off. She really has a lot of trust issues. She’s very sarcastic. She seems to have like a very interesting backstory because her mother was killed and she has been trying to investigate it all her life and that drove her to be a cop.

But it’s those characters that make all of the scenes interesting. And yet even though we know particularly in film and television, that it’s that acting, that portrayal of character that can make a huge difference in whether we’re interested in something or not, I see characters so often lacking from pieces and I hear this complaint from editors a lot to the point where if you’re able to include a tiny, interesting character sketch in your pitch, I think that that will immediately put you on many big, high level editors’ happy lists because they crave that. They say that they get these pitches that don’t have story, but the thing that they really say they want the most is pitches that have characters. But the problem is that pitching is a very narrow format in terms of your word count, right? It’s as bad if not worse than some of those short articles we were looking at last week. So the key is to be able to do a character sketch to draw out a character in very, very few words and words that are very descriptive. And actually on that note, I have a little character sketch that I wrote in a workshop on this that I can share with you guys as well that I think is kind of interesting.

But what I wanna just finish up here before I share that, which I think could be highly amusing to some of you because it is about…it’s about travel bloggers. So I’ll look that up so that I can show that to you as well. But the idea here is, like I said, that we can really do so much in a small space or a large space, whatever size space that we have by using journalistic details. When they serve the purpose, that means that no matter how small the space you have available or how ample, every word that you choose becomes charged with this mission of convincing, of influencing the reader to your point.

But there’s a bigger thing there past what you’re writing. Actually two important things about how this benefits you, and the first one I already shared, which is that it makes editors love you. If you get these into your pitches, they will just be bowled over by what sounds like by what people say is your writing, but it’s not your writing exactly. It’s your thinking. It’s your ability to observe and put down the things that are important to notice. That’s what’s really standing out to them.

It’s not that you’ve been crafty. It’s not that you’ve used these particularly amazing, you know, they call them like one dollar words or one cent words or whatever, right? It’s not that you’ve gone through the thesaurus, and we’ll talk about that later though, but it’s not that you’ve gone through the thesaurus and found the absolutely perfect, complex, intriguing adjective for this person. It’s that you’ve painted a picture that leaps off the page and that stemmed by what you notice and what you choose to include and what you choose to exclude as well. But secondly, and what’s really important here is that that helps with that choosing to include and exclude is that when you’re really clear on what journalistic detail is and what it does, you don’t have to wonder what to include because as soon as you become really clear on what you’re trying to say, the right details leap to mind.

And it was really interesting because also at the Book Passage Conference, there was a gentleman who is a novelist and he also teaches, I suppose literature, maybe creative writing somewhere in California, I think at Berkeley, and he came to do like an author Q&A panel, and I had read some of his books before. And his first book, I was even thinking of using it as an example today, but I wanted to stick to some more travel specific examples, but his first book is just beautiful, stunning in the descriptions that he uses. The words are so wonderfully-crafted. As a writer, like my immediate thought was, oh my God, I wanna use all of these as examples when I teach. But the thing is he said that after that, working on his subsequent books, he’s trying to write on paper and then write an entirely new draft on paper, and then write an entirely new draft on paper. And he’s not interested at all and hanging on the beautiful words because what he said was that as he moves from draft to draft to draft, the things that are important, the things that need to be said, that need to remain stick with him and they appear in every draft regardless.

So I like that idea also with your pitches, with any of your writing is that as you’re writing a version of it, you’re finding out internally in your subconscious the words that need to come out or working their way out and then you see what’s important and then you write it fresh again. And often when I’m chatting with you guys, you know, it’s a conversation of here’s something we need to work on, or what’s the point of this piece really. And then we come back around to, okay, well, should I put that in here after this part, or where should I move this sentence to. But we should start again with new sentences that are fully charged in every word with this new purpose that we have. So that’s why I really, as we’ve discussed in the last couple of weeks, it all really in fact hinges on everything tying back to that story concept

And because we are travel writers… I talked to…I sort of lamented how editors really want a lot of characters and we’re gonna talk more about characters this week, I promise. But people and place descriptions, I see a lot of difficulty on in terms of really getting what you wanna communicate across on the page as opposed to just when you’re talking to me about it. And so that’s where this journalistic detail thing starts to deliver really, really, really clear benefits. I mean, it helps you in terms of when you have a really short piece, kind of seeing where it makes sense to expand and what you need to cut, but it’s when we are trying to get that sense of what is this place? Who really is this person, that really honing this skill starts to really deliver?

So when you think about describing people, there’s really four main tools that you have at your disposal, and I’ve tried to use synonyms but to make it so that it’s ABC, but I couldn’t quite get it to D. So we’ve got two As, so we’ve got AABC or your As and BC. Okay? So the first one is action or mannerisms. Now this is where you choose to describe somebody through what they do rather than their visual. So that means if there’s a potter or somebody who makes ceramics, you might describe how rhythmically her foot moves on the pedal. But at the same time it seems to be almost a separate person from the hands that are deftly guiding the clay as it spins in a completely separate motion from her leg, and her hands slowly shape it into this towering vase and then quickly change the curve of it from one moment to the next without a moment’s hesitation.

Right. So that’s how you might describe her mannerisms. And the point there is, I did use the word “deftly” and things like that. But the point is to show that this woman is…this potter, ceramicist, is incredibly experienced and elegant and calm and centered in her work, and to also instill like a lack of confidence in her craft, okay? But I think what we more commonly go to is this idea of appearance. And then I put a couple of different ways that you can…a couple of different sort of outlets of appearance to kind of encourage you past what you might already be thinking about. So you can describe the shape of one’s face, eyes or mouth, you can describe their complexion, their clothing of course, but their body shape, the shape of their hands, the shape of their…you know, maybe how do they change their posture as they sit or stand or as they become excited about something or laughs.

And that brings us into this behavior B or feelings. So it says as much as you can say about somebody with their actions because that can paint a picture for them. Showing how they stand in relation to other things through their feelings can help triangulate this person in the world and in your story specifically. And then their character. And I like to think about, the same way I talked about people’s feelings, triangulate them against things, you can also think about their character as triangulating them against other people. So here we’re kind of taking actions or mannerisms and we’re putting how people act to other people to show who they are through that sense.

So these are kind of the four main areas. And I wanted to give those out so that if you find yourself overly relying on one rather than others or rather so that you can be cognizant of whether you should find that you’re relying on one more than others, so that you can mix it up because it’s not just that, you know, relying entirely on appearance is kind of lazy writing. An editor will get the sense of that as lazy writing, but you’re also potentially losing out on some really beautiful writing that you could do that could really create this wonderful sense for your reader if you just reminded yourself, oh, I could use this. Oh, I could use that. And so you can do an exercise where you have somebody and you try to describe them in each of these different ways and then pick what speaks to you.

So I mentioned we had done an exercise around this and I think we only had one minute, right? This description, maybe it was five, but we had not a lot of time. So I wanna drop this in here just to show you guys…I have just put it in the chat box, but I’m gonna read it as well for those who are more listening, I wanna just kind of show you guys what you can do when you combine these different things, when you combine behavior, feeling, character, appearance, actions, when you combine those to create a sketch of a person. Now this sketch is about three…well, there’s a fourth short sentence at the end. But this is really like a paragraph about one person and you’re not always gonna have time for that, but you could take several of these sentences separately even if you needed to only have a short space and use that to describe somebody. So let me read this for you. Just let me have one sip of water first.

Like a sixth sense, whenever a camera passed her by, she’d tuck her neck, quick as a turtle, migrated her eyebrows just so to smooth her forehead and flashed a mischievous smile. With her eyes alone, of course, Hollywood red carpet style. Even when there were no noticeable selfie sticks in sight, her fingers tousled her wavy hair every few minutes just in case. And when the opportunity arose, and especially when it did not, she took great care to explain that she had had her 23-year-old son very young. This is the middle-aged influencer. So some of you guys may have met this kind of person before, but I had just come back from a press trip where I was around this particular person every day and couldn’t help but notice these mannerisms or behaviors or feelings or kind of know constant reiterations of hers.

So I was able to write this because I spent about five or six days with the person. So I didn’t have to take notes on her. I was able to just write this from memory when I was faced with doing this exercise. But that’s not always gonna be the case, that you’ve spent a lot of minutes over five days with the person that you need to write this kind of sentence about. So that’s why, like I said, you want to be able to take those pictures, take those notes so that when you want to… Let’s say you edit a piece a few years ago on a fishing village in Portugal where the main…where they’re really known for octopus. So let’s say that I wanted to describe what a fisherman was like, but I didn’t really think about it at the time. I only thought about, oh, I need to find out how they do this. I need to figure out where to eat and then think about all that. I could look back at some pictures. I could describe how they were dressed, but I could also look at what they’re doing and I could describe the actions they take. I could describe, you know, how they stand, how they look like they’re relating to one another and I can do some things with that even just from pictures, okay?

So if you guys have questions on this, just drop them in the chat box as I’m going along. I’ve got one more thing here to talk about how to put this together specifically with people. And then I’m gonna jump over in the descriptions or sorry, the examples and I’ll drop those in the chat box as we’re going along. So everything we’ve been talking about with journalistic detail is really about being specific and if you can, being specific using facts rather than just adjectives. So you can see for instance, when I was talking about this woman, that I’ve described her action and I’ve got a little bit of a metaphor, like I said, “quick as a turtle,: and I’ve used a powerful verb here, “she migrated her eyebrows just so,” rather than “moved.” And then I do have some adjectives, right? That like, “she flashed a mischievous smile” and then “Hollywood red carpet style” is another modifier there. But I try to focus more on actions like she tousled her wavy hair.

And the thing here is that you’re often gonna find when you do, unless you’re just in a really great writing place, you’re often gonna when you sit down and write a description of a person that the first version of it is more bland. It’s more they did this, this and this, or they, you know, they look askance, or they’re gonna be some sort of trite words in there or some not so active verbs or not so evocative verbs. And that’s what editing is for. And so especially when you’re doing this kind of thing, it’s really useful to just get down, like I said, use that AABC, get down as many things as you can, and then pull the ones that seem most powerful and get onto thesaurus.com or whatever people use these days and look at some words to make it more specific. So don’t just think about being specific in the details in terms of capturing them when you’re out, but also about using words that really say exactly what you wanna say. I could have said she fixed her hair, or she adjusted her hair, but her hair was wavy and she tousled it. She kind of scrunched it with her fingers and, like, gave it a little more volume and a little more curl, you know. And I could have said that whole thing that she scrunched it with her fingers, but it’s getting long and I don’t need to spend that many words on it. So I just said she tousled wavy hair, okay?

So doing that, having more words to choose from at the beginning, more descriptions, more journalistic details. And then being able to juice them up with some thesaurus, fancier words, or more specific words, rather. And then pick what’s great and only use that is how you get great descriptions. So that’s being said…that being said, let’s go over and hit some of these examples. So I just sent the link and I’ll put it in again of this article about the monk. Now, one of the reasons that I like this is that, well, it is about the monk. I’m just gonna switch my screen as well. Well, it is about the monk, it’s really he’s passed away at this point. So there are some times where he’s being described, but he’s being described more through the people who are still in this town. Now, I’ve made it bigger. I hope you guys can see it pretty well. Now let me just get back to where I was.

So this piece, like I said, is a little bit of eulogy or a memoranda, or sorry, I’m not saying the right word, but a memory, memorial to this uncle, but it’s also kind of about this idea. And so it doesn’t start out describing the uncle, okay? It starts out talking about the idea of leaving your life and going to a secluded village. So they don’t really get to describe the uncle until quite a bit further down because they’ve started by describing him with what he did, okay? So when we first hear about the uncle, this is all we get, “He was a slight man, five foot seven and 140 pounds, and all his life he retained the buoyant, playful spirit of a boy. I loved him. That never wavered.”

So we really only get like a little bit of a picture of what he looks like and of his character here, but there’s snippets of it all throughout. He doesn’t go into tons of detail on that physical description here. So he was talking like here, he’s talking about Uncle Bill and he’s saying, I think I knew this even when I was three years old. And he showed up at my family’s house in Connecticut on a hot summer day, mischievously smirking and light on his feet when he grabbed the hose and doused me with cold water as I ran all over the yard squealing with glee. So you know, this isn’t a little detail here, one long sentence that shows the man’s sort of joie de vivre. Okay?

But as I mentioned there, even though this piece is about this man, that’s kind of the point of the piece, but it’s really told a lot through the people that he touched. Okay? So I wanna go down and show you how in a very small amount of time, like a single sentence, sometimes the whole paragraph, he’s creating these pictures of these other characters in the piece because this is what’s gonna happen to you guys a lot when you’re writing a narrative type piece and need to really quickly create characters of the people that you meet, okay? ‘So here he found the mayor, 57-year-old Bertrand Lacarrere, is slim and dapper and readying for a backcountry ski trip in Spain.’

No, I’m sure I’m butchering his last name, but I just wanted to pause also. He’s saying that the man is slim and dapper. He doesn’t necessarily say that he’s outdoorsy or adventurous or that he’s very fit. He uses this action, the man is in the middle of readying for a backcountry ski trip in Spain, okay? And then he goes on. I’m just gonna say Lacarrere. Okay. I’m not quite sure how to say it. “Lacarrere, who also plays guitar in a rock band, is a socialist and a Paris native whose family roots in Montastruc date back to the 17th-century reign of Louis XIV. As a child, he spent summers roaming the countryside here, ‘like Tom Sawyer,’ he tells me.” I caught trout in the river with my hands. I went hunting. I climbed into caves with other kids and I met up with girls. I always knew I wanted to do something for this village.

So this right here is like a one paragraph profile of this mayor. All right? And what have they done here? As I told you, they used showing through his actions to show a bit about what he’s like, but then they also move into one more action, playing the guitar, followed by some descriptors and also rooting him, like literally they say his family roots, right? So it’s a mix here of actions plus some words that are more quick than actions, like socialist and Paris native. They get those things across more quickly. And then back to actions, as a child, he spent the summers roaming the countryside like Tom Sawyer.

This one is really more straight travel piece, okay? And this is from “National Geographic,” not “National Geographic Traveller” but “National Geographic” itself.

So I’m gonna can make a note of where we are. So this is a piece about nomadic tribes or nomadic peoples in the Amazonian jungle, okay? And there’s another interesting piece that I just wanted to share with you, which is from the photographer about spending time with these individuals and how to tell their stories. And I think this is also really appropriate to the discussion that we’re having today because it talks about how in his photos he needs to go beyond the preconceptions. And I really love this photo that begins this piece because I think you often see these interestingly kind of posed photos of tribespeople or perhaps they’re in the middle of a ritual, people are trying to show them…you know, show what’s unique about them through showing these rituals. But this is one of these women in a bath with their turtles, and then very interestingly below, it says that the red and yellow footed tortoises they’re holding will probably eventually be eaten, okay?

So it gives…just this photo gives you so much about these people. It gives you their…you can see their smiles, you can see their laughter. You can see their sense of who they spend time with. You can see their relationship between nature and themselves and food and themselves. You can see their adornments. You can see many, many different things here. And this is something that he addresses in this piece that I also sent you the link for and I think that it’s what’s…part of what’s so useful for that is that what…this quote right here, but the whole piece goes into that about stripping away your preconceptions. It’s far more honest way of conveying what people are actually like.

And so the reason I think that’s really important is that I often see when descriptions of people, especially peoples who are more distant from us, that we do often tend to fall back on trying to explain that difference rather than trying to explain them as a person, as a being, as a unique being. We’re trying to kind of paint them in opposition to where we’re coming from. But our readers are often coming from a different place. And I see this quite frequently as well with places, that when people send me pitches to review that are about a city or maybe it’s a city guide or a trending piece or something, it begins with something like, you know, you may not think about this, this, this, this and that when you think of Houston, but, but the thing is that you’re assuming what your reader is gonna think. You’re assuming that they have the same conceptions as you do, which is really not so frequently the case. And that’s why I wanted to send this particular interview as well, but I think it’s very kind of appropriate to also see the method of how the gentleman went across getting these photos for this piece that we’re also gonna look at today.

So for instance, you know, here’s one of a man hunting and he’s got the dog behind him, right? He’s not queued up for the hunt. He’s on his way back. It’s very different here than what you would usually see. So let’s look at a description in this piece. So, Tainaky, who also goes by his Portuguese name, Laercio Souza Silva Guajarara, turns to his four companions, four other Guajarara tribesmen, as they dismount road-beaten motorbikes. The patrol forms a motley crew, patched jeans and camouflage and aviator shades and bandanas to shield their faces from the ubiquitous dry season dust. Bearing an equally modest array of weapons, a single-shot hunting rifle, a homemade pistol, a few machetes dangling from cinched waistbands, they call to mind a strange, cross-genre film. Think “Mad Max” meets “The Last of the Mohicans.”

Now so in this case, you know, we lead with these villagers, but the issue is actually that these people are being threatened by the outsiders. So what they start with here is talking about these people who are on the lookout for loggers. Okay? So these folks that we’re talking about, these aren’t yet the tribespeople. Those come in further on. But when you hear this, it’s interesting because he’s painted a counterpoint to what you’re expecting in the piece by starting with these people who are not the tribespeople. And by giving this picture of them, especially of “Mad Max” meets “The Last of the Mohicans,” right? So this is kind of a metaphor that he’s using here by contrasting these two films.

But what else do we have? We’ve got this more appearance-related description. Again, this is more appearance-related description, but you can also think about… And they have more where they go into kind of their mannerisms and their actions as well. But they even go into it a little bit here, right? Where he says, “who also goes by his Portuguese name,” and he turns to, “as they dismount their road-beaten motorbikes.” So there’s just a little bit of action in here. It’s hidden, but it’s telling us things about these folks. It’s saying that they walk these two lines and that comes in here in the bottom as well, where he says think about “Mad Max” meets “The Last of the Mohicans,” okay?

And he goes on to have a little bit more talking about them, but that’s a little bit more about these loggers. So I’m gonna skip along from there. But the idea is that the people that they’ve introduced in the beginning are homegrown force of indigenous volunteers who are guarding the forest. So let’s go down and see who it is that they’re guarding, the Awa are their…or however you…it’s correctly pronounced that…are those people that we saw earlier on. These are the uncontacted people. So I wanna get down into here where he’s talking, where the author is talking more about these people that he’s met because there’s a good bit of background before we get there. But you can see a lot of, like I said, these photos that are very, very interesting depictions. And again it’s “National Geographic” so I think that that other piece that I sent to you guys or that I put in the chat box, the second one, is also useful in seeing, like I said, how somebody who does this kind of work for “National Geographic” in particular is coming up with those sort of things.

Now I’m actually gonna use this caption here because I found the captions in this piece are really great. So you’ll see here the baby monkey, which has a very interesting haircut itself, and the young gentleman here. “Five-year-old Kaiau carries a baby black-bearded saki monkey on his head. The Awa hunt monkeys for their meat. And when a mother with a baby is killed, they may raise the orphan as a pet, carrying the animal around with them.” So this has got some action, a little bit of description, right? But it also speaks to character. They eat these animals, but they also sometimes raise the babies as a pet. And that’s a kind of action-oriented description that creates just a huge sense of whether its paradox or whatever you wanna call it, but a sense of character, a sense of conflict, a sense of personhood. Just in the description of this picture here, you know.

So let me go down and find another one for you. Like I said, a lot of this piece itself is talking about this territory and the poaching and whatnot. So here we’re getting into some more description of these Awa people. In the shadows of a porch, women pasted tufts of harpy eagle and king vulture feathers to their heads, limbs…or to the heads, limbs and chests of a half dozen otherwise naked men, all of them village elders. The patterns of the white feathers seemed to throb in the darkness, giving the men a spectral, otherworldly appearance. They wear the feathers so the karawara will recognize them as real people, as Awa, Tatuxa explained, referring to the ancestors who watch over the forest and protect the earthbound Awa. Otherwise they might mistake them for white men and kill them.

“Amid eerie, ululating chants, the men danced around an enclosed hut as if in a trance. One by one, they entered and exited the huts, stamping their feet as if to launch themselves into the spirit world overhead. Still dancing and singing, they returned to their women and children, cupping their mouths to blow blessings on their loved ones from the spirits they’d just encountered on their journey to the heavens.” So you can see in here that we’re going back and forth. We’ve got some more physical description and then we’ve got some dialogue or rather, you know, a quote, but dialogue here, that’s talking about the actions that’s kind of explaining the actions and also talking a little bit more of the behavior. And then we really go more here into actions. And then the behavior part here I really like in terms of the feelings, that part of the person in counterpoint to the person and what that shows is that here they are on their own in a hut, but then as they come out they blow blessings on their loved ones, okay?

So this “National Geographic” piece is quite long and I’ll let you guys also check it out on your own. I think it’s very rich. There’s a lot of things going on in here as well, so it kind of goes on and on forever and ever. So I’ll let you guys have a look at that. And like I said as well, that other piece where he went through kind of what he did to get those shots. But there’s a very, very interesting profile that I read recently that I wanted us to look at during this webinar because this guy…well, the person being profiled wanted to have a very active kind of involvement in how he was depicted, which adds a whole new layer to this, but also the descriptions are very much charged with the energy of the person being profiled as well, which is almost an even more meta level of journalistic detail.

So I wanna read from…read to you a description of this actor, it was a man who’s being profiled, but also a description of a very interesting person that they encountered along the way, and we can look at what’s being done here. When I let it slip that the press kit I’d been given had referred to him as a ‘Renaissance man,” Riz Ahmed looked angrily down into his breakfast, a chicken-quinoa bowl with extra chicken. It lasted for only a minute, but the image stayed with me because it was the only time during our approximately 10 hours together, breakfast in Brooklyn, private sessions with the Islamic art collection at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, YouTube sessions listening to 1970s Qawwai-inspired Iraqi disco, talks on park benches in Fort Greene, tea on the sidewalk of Fulton Avenue and even dinner in Boston, where Ahmed was filming an independent feature about a heavy metal drummer who’s losing his hearing, the 35-year-old actor seemed to be truly, genuinely upset. So very much like I write.

You’ll see that this entire thing here is just one sentence. It goes on. “It’s not that he doesn’t get animated. He does. Talking with Ahmed can be a bit like sparring, a little like co-writing a constitution, a little like saving the world in an 11th-hour meeting. He interrupts, then apologizes for interrupting, then interrupts again. He can deliver entirely publishable essays off the top of his head. He pounds the table when talking about global injustices, goes back to edit his sentences minutes after they were spoken, challenges the premises of your sentences before you’re halfway through speaking. This is what happens when you cut your teeth on both prep-school debate teams and late-night freestyle rap battles, as Ahmed has. He is like someone who wants to speak truth to power but now is power, famous enough, at least, to have people listen to his ideas. He is like someone very smart who also cares a lot. He is like someone who doesn’t want to be misunderstood.”

So like I mentioned, I really love this profile and it keep sending it around to people to read. But there’s some really great little details in here as well and that’s why I wanted us to look at that today. So I just love the absolute first sentence of this piece, we’ve got his breakfast, a chicken-quinoa bowl with extra chicken. Like what a detail to decide to include in the very first sentence of this. And they’re talking all about how he’s almost like historical. He’s interested in so many other things. He’s almost divorced from this time and then this chicken-quinoa bowl from extra chicken. He’s like, he’s a dude who doesn’t eat carbs and has lots of protein and it’s like he’s on the paleo diet, right? So it’s creating this counterpoint already between him as being almost a figment of history and his eloquence and all the different things that he’s interested and all that against being a guy in Brooklyn, eating a chicken-quinoa bowl with extra chicken. That’s one of my favorite details in this piece right here off the bat. But also, as I was talking about the pace of the piece, is also a detail that speaks to the person being interviewed here, this super long da, da, da, da, da, da, da, of all the things that they did goes to then how the author talks about how Ahmed speaks as well.

And so here, there’s a lot of talking about his behavior and using his actions to show what he’s like, right? Talking to him is like sparring, like co-writing a constitution, like saving the world in an 11th-hour meeting. He didn’t just say that it’s a debate. He said later on that it’s been honed through debating, but it’s not just about debating, it’s that he’s talking about these huge ideals and that he talks about with an urgency that we have to fix this right now. And that’s all shown just through these two last little clauses here in this sentence.

Now there’s another really interesting part further down in this piece where they encounter, I’m gonna have to find it, it’s a little further down, where they encounter… Okay, they’re in an Uber driving to the museum. All right? Now this little bit here is just amazing, so I wanna read this part to you as well because it was just an absolutely unscripted, really interesting thing and I find the way that the author uses his details in describing this other person is really great as well.

So it happened before this was the actor, who was Ahmed, was kind of interviewing the taxi driver about all sorts of things and he was the author of this piece who was trying to get the interview back on track. He says, “Instead, we were interrupted by something else. Beside us on the road there appeared a batter black jeep, on monster tires, with huge steer horns glued to either side of the hood. And a shark’s fin coming from the roof. And radioactivity stickers. And what seemed like a thousand headlights. And a personalized license plate that read ‘Move Away.’ And while I was thinking, LOL, New York, amirite? Back to my interview,’ Ahmed was saying, ‘Pete,’ our driver’s name, which he had clearly made a point of remembering, ‘pull up next to him, and let’s see who exactly this is. Let’s have a little chat quickly.’ Pete obliged.” We pulled up, only to find that the vehicle was being driven by an Orthodox Jew.

I’m just gonna scroll down a little bit for a second so you can get back to the description. More was revealed. The man was French. He’d been in the States for five years, along with his brother. They were children’s entertainers, performers and low-key stuntmen who were in the process of making a kids’ DVD that was based somehow on this Zombie Proof jeep. In parentheses, “Their act is called ‘The Twins From France’ and they are available for bar mitzvahs.”

So this, it’s just amazing this thing that happened to them, but I think equally it’s really important to look at why this was included and how it relates in terms of journalistic detail to the bigger piece. So I just wanna scroll back up. This is the title, how he’s acted his way out of every cultural pigeonhole. And they speak a lot in this piece about how he is from a former colony, but he grew up in the UK and going to the best schools and he both is the colonizer and the colonized and about how he embodies these things and tries to figure that out.

And so when they pulled up next to the sky and when the author decided to include this in the piece, it wasn’t just because it was a weird, interesting, like really fascinating thing that happened. It’s because this depicted exactly what Riz Ahmed who was being profiled here, exactly what he’s trying to stand for, is that all of these things can exist in one place. Orthodox Jews who perform at bar mitzvahs who are from France, who drive around in zombie proof trucks, with radioactivity stickers, horns, and I think Confederate flags, okay? This is what the piece is about. So when this thing happened to them, it was a clear choice to include this here and also it’s a clear choice of what to do in this description. They have to set the description up for maximum contrast. They have to show this in a way where it seems to you that the furthest possible thing from your mind would be Orthodox Jews or twins from France or whatever.

So he sets it up with every…he just throws on every single thing that could possibly make this seem more surprising when that reveal comes in. And he does it in a way of exactly that, exactly of throwing more things on the pile. They are literally all sentences that begin with “… And…” He doesn’t say… He begins with a few in a row, a battered black jeep on monster tires with huge steer horns glued to either side. He doesn’t say a shark’s fin coming from the roof, radioactivity stickers, a thousand headlights and a personal license plate that read “Move Away.” The way he’s put these details in, period, “And the shark’s fin.” period, “And radioactivity stickers.” period, “And what seemed like a thousand headlights.” Even more. Period. “And a personalized license plate that read ‘Move Away.’” okay? So even the way that those details are presented is to give you that sense of movement, of motion, of and, and, and. Okay?

So I’ve got a couple other examples that aren’t as good as some of the ones that we looked at. So I’ll stop there with examples and come back over and wrap up. if you have any questions on this, drop those in the chat box. And for these people description ones that I pulled today, I tried to pull sort of just for your knowledge, a few different things and some were pieces that I had read previously, that I knew that I wanted to use when we talked about this. Like I said, some are specifically profiles of people, but also that “National Geographic” one is more of kind of a feature in which they’re doing other things. But what I really wanna say is that you have to use these everywhere. You have to use these. Any time you’re doing a narrative piece of any kind where you have to introduce characters, you should be doing it in your pitches. Any time you’re talking about somebody that you’ve interviewed, whether it’s a business owner or whatnot, as long as it serves the greater point of the piece.

And I look forward to seeing you guys next week. Bye.

What is and What is Not a Salable Non-Fiction Book Today: Finding Your Place in the Marketplace Transcript

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Now, we’re gonna be talking about nonfiction books. And I’m gonna be telling you over the course of this webinar why I’m so excited about them in terms of what they can do for you.

But I know that many of you have also thought about doing books. I, in fact, just earlier today, had a coaching call with the gentleman that I coach who is working on…actually, his book is finished right now. And we’re just working on the marketing plan for it. I mean, since I’ve started looking at books as a viable thing to add to your writing literature, I have had several people that I know have gone through getting an agent writing the book from scratch, working with a publisher, had it come out in the lack of years. It does not take long. And I think a lot of what you hear about book publishing taking a long time comes from the fiction side. It comes from novels. And that’s because when you write fiction, when you write a novel, you have to write the whole thing first and have it all done. And that’s just done. But good enough, as perfect enough as you can get it that somebody else gets interested in it. But then what happens is once someone else gets interested in it, that person rips it apart with their own viewpoint of what should it be and you’re rewriting and you’re rewriting. And it’s not uncommon for somebody’s first novel to take 12 years. And that’s not even always just people’s first novel.

So what happens with nonfiction books, which is so different, and this is why it’s a really cool thing to add to your arsenal of what you’re working on, is that you do not write the book first. Now, this webinar is gonna be all about figuring out what the idea for your book should be. But your next step is not to write the book. It is to write the book proposal. And, in fact, all the webinars that we’re doing in this current series are about putting together different pieces of that book proposal. And I’m approaching them in a kind of different order. You’ll usually see them presented on various websites. If you look up how to write a nonfiction book or how to do a nonfiction book proposal, you’ll see them presented in a much more let’s call it ordered version in terms of the way that things appear either in your book proposal or somebody’s idea of…It sounds like it makes sense that first you should find an agent and then you should know. What we’re gonna talk about in this series is the most efficient, not just in terms of you taking the least time because you’re doing things in an order but in terms of doing things in the right order, in the order that makes sure that you do not have to go back and redo your work any more times than it is already necessary in this multi revision oriented process.

So the big, big difference between nonfiction books and fiction books is that when you sell a nonfiction book, you sell it from a proposal, which is based on a certain number of sections. We’ll get into this in a lot more detail in next week’s webinar in terms of the order of the sections and what they are, what they all do. But you sell it from this proposal that can be anywhere from 20 to say 60 pages as opposed to this 350 pages of your book. And this happens for the exact same reason that you are selling articles to magazines based on pitches rather than on the completed piece so that you are not wasting time of writing something that someone’s not gonna be able to publish and that your editor or the agent comes first or the people editing your work in terms of before the book goes out into the hands of the myriad readers that you’re gonna have some day. Then those people are not having to tear apart something that you’ve spent years of your life on in order to put their input into it to have it the way that they know it needs to be to work in the marketplace and speak to your readers. They’re able to co-create with you rather than come in like some disciplinarian telling you, “No, all these things that you did don’t work.”

So, I am even seeing…we’re gonna talk about the different genres of nonfiction books in a little bit. But I’m even seeing in what’s typically classed as memoir, which is really a first-person story of something that happened with some sort of life’s lesson at the end. People always used to say that you have to sell memoir already written. And I’m even seeing a change in that. So if you have a book idea, I think you’ve been thinking about maybe that you’ve already worked a little bit on, do not feel like you have to spend the next three, five, however many years, slaving away on that before you can even know if somebody is interested in it or not. The proposal is the answer. But before the proposal, you need to know if that idea even fits in the marketplace. And that’s what we’re gonna look at today. So specifically, what I wanna go through in this webinar is…I talked a little bit about what’s great about book ideas in terms of how they should fit into your repertoire, but I’m gonna talk more about that.

And then I’m gonna talk about something that you’ve heard me talk about before in terms of writing for magazines, but you may not have thought about in the book space, which is that you need to be infinitely more narrow than you think at least when you start. And then we’re gonna talk about what’s selling today. As in right now 2018 so far, what are the books that are going big? But then we’re gonna look at the books that are going to be coming out in two years from now. There’s a way to do that. You don’t have to be in a publishing house. You don’t have to pay $2,000 a month. There’s a very easy way to see the future of book publishing. And I’m gonna show you that and we’re gonna look at it to look at what is going on specifically in the travel space.

For this month’s or this four week series of webinars on book publishing, it’s really important to know that just like you can go to journalism school and you can learn how to interview or how to put together a data journalism series or all sorts of different things these days, you’re not gonna be learning how to pitch. If you do an MFA, if you do a traditional MFA, you’re gonna be sitting in a lot of rooms with a lot of other writers with a lot of emotions critiquing each other’s work. You’re gonna be doing a lot of reading. You’re gonna be doing a lot of thinking. You’re gonna be doing a lot of uncomfortable stuff. But you’re not gonna be learning about how to get your book into the market. And that’s what we’re gonna do in this webinar. So first and foremost, there’s like a slight irony here if you think about it between the fact that I’m all about you guys having sustainable lives and earning the most money possible for your time and then I’m talking about books, which seem like they take forever. They don’t really sell. How do these two things fit together?

Now, on the surface…and we’re gonna see this when we go look in this website that I was telling you about later where you can see all of the books that are gonna be coming into the market later. But on the surface, I wonder if you guys have a sense of how much you can get paid as an advance for your book. So if you know anything about books and you are on the webinar live and you wanna throw that in the chat box, go ahead. I’m really curious. But the idea of an advance, you may have heard this word if you’re already into books. But if not, I just wanna explain exactly the economics of how books work.

So, when you as an author wanna have a book come out through a traditional publishing model, your first step is to get an agent. And your agent’s job, it’s kind of better again to go back to sports to think of them like a manager because they do those kind of things that you might think of an athlete’s manager doing. They don’t just put you out there, but they do negotiations for you. They find opportunities for you. They do actually the finances of making sure that you’re getting paid. They met all of the money out from the different places. They do the currency exchange. They do the contracts. They have legal expertise to be reviewing those contracts, all of these things. So, your first step is to get an agent. And that agent is gonna take about 15% of whatever you earn.

Now, there’s two things that you earn. So you see somebody who I know is involved in books has put in the chat box a pretty good number in terms of what your advance can be. And so there’s two types of money you can get. That’s the advance and the royalties. And what that means is that the advance is the money that you get before the book comes out into the market. It’s typically kind of set up as a round number as in some number of thousands of dollars and it’s paid out to in stages, sometimes three, sometimes four. But it’s typically that you get something like a third on signing, a third on delivery of the entire manuscript, and a third on let’s call it acceptance of the manuscript. You might also get some on the publication day as well. And then some places might have different ways that they split that up.

So you might be getting let’s say a low number, which should be $10,000. You might be getting a $10,000 advance for your book in which you’re gonna get $2,500 right away and then another 2,500 when you turn it in and then another 2,500 when it’s accepted and then another 2,500 when it comes out say. Okay. Now, when your book is sold, every book that’s sold, a piece of that comes sort of back to you. But what happens is that since the publisher advanced you money, they paid you money in advance, that money that comes back that’s your portion needs to kind of go in a little fund until it exceeds the amount that the editor already advanced you, and then you start to get money for every book. And that’s called royalties. Now, how much people earn in royalties or if you even hit the point of earning royalties is different for everybody. But you could say that you probably earn somewhere around…as a person, as the author, you probably earn around $3.00 out of every book. Just for your understanding of how many books you need to sell in order to earn out on these advances and earn out is the term for when you hit the amount of your advance and then you start to earn the royalties. So a pretty, let’s call it ungenerous advance from a publisher these days would be $5,000 or maybe $10,000.

In the publishing world, they think of those as let’s just take it and see what happens. Those are books where they think that absolutely no money might come in off of that book. But they also think that…and if it does come in, then you’ll just start getting royalties. And that’s great for you and that’s great for them. So the difference in getting a small advance is more about the way that the publishing house views your book. If they view your book as a, “Oh, well, we’ll just throw some money at it book,” they’re not gonna do very much in the marketing of it. But when you hear about book marketing…we’re gonna talk way more about this in upcoming webinar. But I just want you to understand a little bit for this money perspective of how things work internally. When you hear about book marketing, you might be thinking about doing book signings or having your book perhaps promoted on the radio or doing a TV show. But there’s a lot of things that editors are involved in paying for in the book marketing. They even are paying to get you on that first table that people see when they walk into Barnes & Nobles. But that’s the late part of the process.

In the book industry, every publisher has sort of a catalog that they put out. And where your book even shows up in that catalog or how much space it gets in that catalog is important because that catalog goes out to book stores. That catalog is also used for a sales conference that they have for their internal salespeople who are the ones responsible for taking meetings at Barnes & Nobles and independent bookstores all over the country and trying to get your book into those stores. So if you have one of these let’s just throw some money at it advances, which might sound kind of cool to you to get $10,000 for your book, you are gonna be bearing the brunt of the responsibility for making that book any more successful than you just getting that $10,000 advance. So it depends what your goal is. And one goal that you can have when it comes to the books is to be known as an author and to be able to put that in your bio when you are pitching magazines. So if all you want is to have a book to your name and to be able to say, “I am the author of blah, blah, blah from HarperCollins or from Penguin or from Hachette or one of the big publishing houses or just any publishing house, it is exceedingly easy to do that because editors are looking for these, “Oh, I’ll just throw a little money at it books.” They are because they have to have different types of books in their portfolio as well. Okay?

So, a very small amount of money, which Lyndsey hit the needle on the head or whatever it is, hit the needle on the…nail on the head. There we go, not needle in the haystack, in the chat box is $10,000. So you can get that amount of money as a throwaway amount of money that the publisher doesn’t even care about and get to have a book come out through traditional publisher. But you can also get a “normal advance or a healthy advance,” which would be more like $30,000 or $50,000 without that much more work. So that means, if you’re getting paid a third at a time, when you first sign that contract, you get that agent and then that agent gets you that book deal, you are getting $10,000 plus in a check right there right at the beginning to pay you to spend the time to write that book. And this is why nonfiction books are the best because you have this idea.

You check out the marketplace. We’re gonna talk about how to do all of this in this series. You make sure it fits. You make sure that everything is lined up exactly how publisher wants to do it. You get that agent. That agent gets a publisher for you and then you can get a very nice check for five figures right off the bat. But like I said, the real dividends here are having that book associated with your name going forward, being able to say that you are the author of X, being able to say that in your pitches, on your bio, on your website, in all of these different places because having a book to your name immediately establishes you, first of all, just as a person who has a stamp of being approved by a source of curated writing information.

But secondly, it establishes you or can be used to establish you as the go-to person for whatever that book is about. So somebody that I work with has a really interesting book idea around Japan that we’ve been talking about. And she has moved from Japan back to where she’s from, but she would like to keep writing about Japan. So this is the kind of thing where she can use that book. She’s already got the years that she was living there. But she can use that book to position herself as the expert on visiting this particular type of thing in Japan even though she doesn’t live there anymore. Okay. Let’s say for instance I’m here in Colombia right now. I’m sitting in Medellin, which is like a big expat kind of capital of Colombia. Colombia is an interesting place. This is something that’s only come on the mainstream tourism radar quite recently if you would even say that they’re getting mainstream tourists here or so I think more of them are going to Peru. And it’s an interesting place. It’s an interesting place in terms of the modernity of the sort of neighborhood that I’m in. It’s an interesting place in terms of the history of Pablo Escobar. There’s so many different things that you could choose if you live in Medellin or know Medellin well that you could choose to focus on to write a book and then be positioned as the expert on this burgeoning tourism area. Okay?

So, it’s great to look at books that are not only things that you could easily write but things that set you up for what you want to continue to do. But the thing is your book needs to be one book, not an encyclopedia. Your book, even though it’s nonfiction and even though it may be service oriented as it may have advice or tips or information, your book will work so much better if it has a singular story attached to it. And I’m gonna show you. We’re gonna pop over in a couple minutes and look at the books this year that are selling really well and you’ll see this particularly in practice. But to sort of drive this point home and the fact that it’s not new, well, storytelling is kind of a buzzword these days even though storytelling has been around for 3,000 years. This idea of sticking to specific stories and the books that you write has worked very well for a number of very successful and well-known travel and sort of food culture writers over the years. So I just pulled…there was so many more that I could pull and I was just like…every time I kind of started writing when I think of some more. But I’ve pulled a few writers over for us to look at here.

So Jan Morris is very much talked about in circles of I would call it more…I don’t wanna just say older, but I would say travel writers who are…I would say even 45 plus tend to think of Jan Morris and know Jan Morri’s lovely writing. If you don’t know her already, I really recommend you read some of her stuff. It’s really beautiful. She also does a lot of essays and different types of things. But you’ll see here…and Jan Morris’s list now and Wales is misspelled there. Sorry about that. Jan Morris’s list, and this is just curated because she’s written so many books. Her books are very specific geographically but they’re also often quite specific time wise. So you see she has one that’s a “South African Winter.” She has one that’s just about a market in one place. She has one called the “Venetian Bestiary.” She has one called the “Sultan in Oman.” So her books aren’t just about a place but then they’re also about something about that place.

And then there’s Tim Cahill who is also definitely sort of himself an older writer but I think also his books…I don’t know but he’s had too many come too recently. But he was a founding editor of Outside Magazine, which is known for its really, really amazing writing. And you’ll notice with his book titles with the exception of “Lost in My Own Backyard” and kind of the second to last one as well, there tends to be kind of this theme. He writes about adventure travel. So he’s got, “Jaguars,” “Ducks,” “Wolverine,” “Butterworms.” He’s got this kind of animal oriented themes in his books, but that’s because each of these books is kind of about a specific instance, a specific journey, and in a specific place. So he’s not looking to write you a history of everything that’s happened in Kathmandu. He’s not even looking to write you a guide to Kathmandu. He’s looking to tell you his specific and personal story of a particular adventure travel trip and the calamities that ensued in…I don’t think there’s anyone here that are particularly in Kathmandu but in various places like that in Yellowstone, for instance.

Now, somebody who takes a slightly different tack but is quite well known and that’s why I put him in here is another gentleman, Bill Bryson. And Bill Bryson is American but have been living in Britain for a long time. His family is there and so he wrote actually several books on Britain, notably “Notes from a Small Island.” And it’s important to look at here that even though he does sometimes write books that are about a whole country such as Britain one is “Notes from a Small Island.” “Notes from a Big Country” is about the US. “In a Sunburned Country” is about Australia. “The Lost Continent” I believe is about South America. “The Palace Under the Alps,” that’s kind of a larger one about Europe. Even though he does take on these larger places, there’s always a more specific lens through which he is looking at it. So “The Palace Under the Alps,” for instance, is about Europe but it’s about…I think it’s like 200 or so very unusual landmarks. Okay. “Notes from a Small Island” is him working his way through Britain but in a very real time oriented way, noting what he’s seeing as he goes through, as he goes by. And in some cases, he’s giving you some larger history or some demographics, ethnographic, psychographics, different things like that. But it’s more about what is happening to him on one journey even though it’s through this large place.

Now, I have another one in here whose books are more food oriented. But I wanted to put him in because he’s a really good example of this idea of specificity. So Michael Pollan, also a journalist, also writes essays, also a lot of different things. He is quite known for a few of the books on this list. But the ones that I think you might not perhaps know quite as well are these two, “Cooked” and “Botany of Desire” that are really specific. And that’s one of the reasons that I wanted to mention them is that some of the books that he’s written like “Food Rules” and the “Omnivore’s Dilemma” are really almost tomes of…you might wanna call it manifestos a little bit. “Omnivore’s Dilemma” has quite a bit reporting. But “Food Rules” is quite more manifesto-oriented. And in “Cooked” and “Botany of Desire,” what he does in both books is that he splits the books into four sections. “Botany of Desire” is about four different plants: marijuana, apples, orchids. And I can’t remember the last one. And “Cooked” is about four different types of cooking. So I believe there’s cooking over fire, fermenting, boiling, and then another one that I can’t remember. And each of his books, each of those two books is completely split into these four sections. But he’s using those four sections to build a larger story and a larger trend. So there’s just two more authors I wanna show you guys too.

So, one is another kind of very, very classic travel writer of the book variety, and his name is Pico Iyer. And you’ll see here again, Kyoto, Cuba, Kathmandu, “Falling off the Maps: Some Lonely Places around the World.” And then he gets into these ones. They’re not even exactly about traveling. They’re kind of about the concept of travel through some different places. So he has the “Art of stillness: Adventures in Going Nowhere,” and “The Global Soul: Jet Lag, Shopping Malls, and the Search for Home.” Now, even though these are not about a specific place, they’re very specific in terms of what they are focusing on. Another gentleman whose books are more recent that some of you may be familiar with is J. Maarten Troost here with “The Sex Lives of Cannibals,” which is really good if you’re trying to write a nonfiction narrative book for the first time like something that you’ve experienced yourself and you’re trying to figure out about how to break up the different chapters and how to do plotting. I really recommend the beginning of his “Sex Lives of Cannibals” book for that, but his are all of this variety going somewhere with people that most Western people don’t understand well and figuring them out. Okay. So there’s the South Pacific Islands. It’s China. There’s a lot of South Pacific Islands in here. And then he even has one where he travels to a theme park which is meant to be from the future.

So, as you saw no doubt in some of these books, there tends to be a couple different types of first-person writing that are more prevalent than others. Now, as I mentioned, you can kind of call a lot of things memoirs if there’s a first person involved. There’s a lot of other different types of names that you can use for them. So I’ve broken things out a little bit. But as you notice particularly for instance with Tim Cahill, it also happens with Jim Maarten Troost and a little bit of Pico Iyer as well and even Bill Bryson, it’s very common just as it is in future articles for people to set out a quest for themselves. They’re going to visit every country in this…every state in the country. Alice Cheryl Strayed, they’re gonna walk the Pacific Trail. Elizabeth Gilbert, she’s gonna go to these three countries and she’s gonna pursue what is it like gluttony, spirituality, and balance. So this idea of a quest in which you’re narrowly sticking to what’s happening in real time and what’s important for the reader to understand the real time in terms of background and no other background besides that, that’s a very common type of book. And the other really lovely thing about those is that you may have already gone on said quests and then be pitching the book, but you can also pitch the book before the quests and get the quest paid for. And that is the holy grail of nonfiction narrative book advances, my friends.

Now, the next thing that you can look at if you’re somebody who thinks of yourself as a set anymore or let’s call it analytical or service-oriented writer is this idea of trends, not trending. We’re gonna talk about that in a second but of trends. So this might be, for instance, I’m not sure if there’s a really good mass-market book on digital nomadism. I’m not sure. I don’t know if there’s a good traditionally published book on this that has really explained what it is and the rise and all these things to the mass marketplace to the general public. So that would be a trend in travel. Another trend in travel that I haven’t seen a great book published on yet is the rise of food tours or experiential travel. What is that really? Why do you care? Where did it come from? Why? Those are trends.

So anything that you see kind of brewing, don’t just assume that somebody else has written the book on that. You can be the one. You can do the interviews. You can do the research and you can be the one who positioned yourself as the expert on that topic by writing a book about it. Now, another one that’s really cool, and you’d see kind of the mix of quests in this with J. Maarten Troost specifically, is reporting on fascinating unknown people or subcultures. And Jan Morris does this in a really lovely way as well with a lot of her books on Venice and Trieste and so many other places, is to take…you can take a country. You can take a period in that country’s history. You can take a famous person from there and to do it in more of whether it’s a biography or kind of a more reported-oriented look at that person or those people’s and their significance and tell their story.

Now, some of the other ones that I have on here are not necessarily ones that I think that you guys are gonna write, but they’re selling quite well today. And you’re gonna see this as we skip over to the list on Esquire of the best nonfiction narrative books of 2018. So comedy memoirs, so these are like comedians who are essentially writing a memoir, but it’s more about their voice. The one that Tina Fey did about being a boss I think was really kind of one of the big first ones in this area. Also drug memoirs seem to always do well. Sometimes the trends shifted there about recovery. Sometimes they’re sort of shocking us, sometimes they’re rock and roll, but those always do well. And essays have made a comeback.

Now, I’m not necessarily sure that I would recommend essays as a first time out type book to people, but essays are making a very big comeback. They used to be something that editors and agents would really shudder if someone tried to pitch them and now there’s a lot more interest in that. And then the other thing that you’re seeing a lot of is these very ripped from the headline type topics.

So let me switch over to this other window where we’re gonna look at both the Esquire list and also we’re gonna look at this place where you can see the books of the future like J. Maarten Troost and going to the theme park of the future.

But this list is from Esquire. It’s the top 50 nonfiction books of 2018 so far. I was calling it narrative nonfiction book, so they’ve technically called it nonfiction books. But pretty much every book on here is narrative more or less as you’ll see as we go through. So we have a few kind of outliers. This interesting true story about schizophrenia one is a little bit of an outlier. But you’ll see that a lot of them fit into these trends that I was talking to you about. So this is “Dispatches from the Border.” So this is really touching on both a subgroup and ripped from the headlines, “Black Lives Matter” memoirs, ripped from the headlines, “I’ll be Gone in the Dark: One Woman’s Obsessive Search for the Golden State Killer.” Again, it’s become really trendy these sort of true crime things. Here’s one of a quest of somebody going into the Wu-Tang clan and coming part of it. We’ve got a trend piece how women are revolutionizing television, not a trend piece rather but a trend book. We’ve got a subgroup one, “The Wisdom of Wolves: Lessons from the Sawtooth Pack.” We’ve got “Everything is Wonderful and Horrible, “Horrible and Wonderful,” a tragic comic memoir, so from the writer of “Parks and Recs,” one of those comedy memoirs, again, just the funny part. It’s one of those comedy memoirs.

This is really one of those ripped from the headlines ones. It’s about the town where they took down all the Confederate statues. I’m not gonna go through all of them now, but I’m just kind of go through to show you the specific ones that I wanted to show you now. So some of these like I said very ripped from the headlines. That’s something that’s not gonna go away. It’s becoming a much, much bigger trend than it used to be. But there’s some really lovely interesting ones in here as well. This one is a book of essays which is really wonderful and from a really great writer, Alexander Chee, that I met recently. But there’s also one…let’s hold on. Now the website is still launching. There’s also ones that are very much not tied to the stature of the person writing it that I really wanna bring your attention. So this is a really lovely one that falls into that category of taking a sort of unknown or popularly unknown or sort of lesser-known person or subgroup and showing how they’ve really made a difference in a lot of things that we know or a lot of people that we know. So this is a tailor who dressed Bianca Jagger, John and The Beatles.

Now, there’s one that I’m looking for for you guys here as you’ll see lots of different headlines more about lies in Silicon Valley startups. But there’s one that I really wanna show you, which I was really happy to see on this list which was…here we go, “Chesapeake Requiem: A year with the Watermen of Vanishing Tangier Island.” So this is an island off of Virginia where both the people are vanishing and the economy is vanishing and also the water erosion is happening. And this is the kind of thing that I hear so many of you guys telling me that you’ve found people like this in your travel. You’ve found people who just have a fascinating story to tell who their story touches on the sense of place. It touches on some larger trends of globalism and environmentalism, different things like this. These make excellent amazing book pitches, you guys. And so I really want you to know that not only are these books out there but that to be the person that tells that story, you really don’t need much more background, much more skills, much more proving yourself than you already have. You just have to do the research and show that your writing is up to snuff and that you’re gonna put it together. Okay?

So I’m not sure if there’s another one in here that I wanted to show you. There’s some really lovely books, but I don’t think there’s anything else in particular on this list that we really needed to see. This one is kind of an interesting first-person one. And those are like I said, ones that are a lot easier to sell now than they used to be. But you have to have a really incredible story. And to that point, there’s one woman who has been a writer for several years and she wrote this book that’s gone off very well. And she wrote about having Lyme disease. And this is something where she got really lucky in terms of ripped from the headlines plus her first person memoir because this is something that she struggled with for a really long time. But Lyme disease is largely in the news right now. So if you have something that’s first-person, you might have several ideas that you’ve had once upon time of like, “Oh, ha-ha, I could write a book about this.” People tell you that at dinner parties, right? Watch for when it becomes timely. That’s the best time to pitch that particular book. So how do you know what’s timely aside from scanning the headlines periodically? That brings us to Publishers Marketplace.

So any of you who are on the call today, you’re listening to the call after the fact who have thought about writing a book, have, I hope heard about this. But I want to show you guys not just what this incredible resource is but also how you can use it to figure out what your book should and should not be. So Publishers Marketplace, very much in brief, is like a clearinghouse of information about the publishing industry in several ways. So there’s headlines, and you can sign up for a free newsletter. They call it Publishers Marketplace Lunch or something like that. You can sign up for a free newsletter from them where you’re gonna get kind of a list of headlines and also a list of some of the deals that are being done. But you can also pay I think it’s just about 25, maybe 29 bucks per month to get a membership to this and really just peruse the crap out of it for when you really need to dig in and do the research and then you just turn it off when you’re done. Okay?

So what they deal in here besides aggregating the headlines is that they’ll…and besides listing jobs is that they…well, first of all, they really do a lot of things like they list this week’s most visited pages including most visited blogs. Okay? So, what they do best, the one here, what you’re gonna get from here that you’re not gonna be able to get anywhere else is not the stuff that you’re seeing on the first page. It’s once you get in, you have the ability to search and find anything you want. I pulled up this search. I just put in travel because I want you to see some things here. So for instance, you can get direct email addresses for all the editors, like literally all of the editors. The thing though is that you shouldn’t be pushing your book directly to editors. You should be going to an agent, but you can get email addresses for them as well and you can also figure out which agent you should target in here as well. But I’m trying to think if anyone…I don’t wanna put somebody’s book idea in here who’s not on the call. Okay. I don’t know any nonfiction book ideas left up my head for anybody who’s on the call today. So I will make one up. But let’s say, for instance, you want to write a book about let’s say Colombia.

So let’s look for travel and Colombia. And I’m spelling it wrong, Colombia. Okay? So what you can do in Publishers Marketplace is that you can see every book that touches on these topics that has been sold to a publishing house recently. So I put in travel and Colombia. So that’s gonna narrow the field a little bit. I could have just put in Colombia, but we got two that one quite recently and one a little bit further in the past. So the one that’s more passed is by a public speaker and author called “Where am I Eating” in which she travels the globe, again, quest piece to work and fish alongside the farmers and fishermen tasked with feeding the American appetite. So it’s a quest to figure out where our food comes from. And here’s another one, “The Adventures of Alexander Von Humboldt.” So this is a New York Times best-selling historian and he is writing ding-ding-ding about a specific very interesting person who’s not well known to history and about that person’s life journey and what the big takeaways are. So in this case, it’s a scientist explorer who crossed the Andes on foot walking from Colombia to Peru canoeing down the Orinoco encountering electric eels and Jaguars and culminating with his visits in 1804 to Thomas Jefferson in Washington.

Okay? So these are two of those types of books that I told you about before, taking a specific person or subculture and taking something trending. In 2011, where was our food coming from was a huge, huge trend. So let’s say that you…I opened this over here. I just put in travel, just travel, only the word travel, nothing else. And I wanted to show you guys all of the deals that are being done for books that involve travel. Okay? So here we’ve got…this is a person who…if you see rights sale, it means that the book wasn’t sold to a publisher but that the book has already been bought but they’re selling the rights to a different country. Okay? So this is somebody who is a short story writer and a novelist. And this is actually a novel that has a travel angle to it.

And you’ll actually be surprised how many of these you see when you look in here. Here’s another one, the tenth Kate Shackleton mystery featuring the eponymous sleuth who travels to the opening of the new Bronte Museum. So I could go in here, and I could filter. See, I’m gonna take this out. So I’m gonna take out all the fictions and now we’re just seeing fiction and then we’re gonna search again so that we’re not seeing the fiction travel pieces. But it’s important to see those as well, guys, because if you’re pitching something that’s nonfiction and narrative and there’s a fiction story that’s already out there or already being sold that’s quite similar, that’s still gonna create a disconnect for you in terms of having to make sure that your book is different from other people’s books.

So as you’re looking here, and like I said, I just put in travel for us because I wanted us to get an overview sense of what’s being published. If you’re looking in here and trying to figure out what kind of book can you do should you do, there’s several different ways to go about it. So you can read through just for inspiration the same way that I advise people who are new to working with magazines do in the Travel Magazine database. You can look like I just entered that travel and Colombia search to see what else is being published very narrowly about your topic. You can look and see what else is being published more broadly about your topic and then discover where you fit in from there. So I’m gonna look through these and then I also wanna go back to that Colombia search and put in just Colombia instead of travel and Colombia and see what’s coming up for Colombia in nonfiction so we can get a sense of that. So looking at this more overall travel search, we’ve got, again, many of these interestingly similar types of books that I told you about. You really can’t go wrong with those styles of books that I showed you. They are the ones that sell right now.

So here’s Hemingway’s great-granddaughter talking about “Ernest’s Way: An International Guide to Hemingway’s Travels,” what a cool book idea and just the perfect person to do it. So this can give you the idea of like what other people may I be connected to that I can do this kind of thing about? You probably know if you’re Ernest Hemingway’s great-granddaughter, but who knows who else might be a big person in a different industry that might be an interesting person for you to do such a book about? So contributing editor of Hometown Pasadena, Mary Lea Carroll’s “St. Everywhere: Travels with Lady Saints,” with inspirational stories of the author’s side trips to learn about the great women saints whenever and wherever she travels. “Home Sick,” a Man Booker Prize winners, illustrated memoir about the dangers of empathy and thrills of world travel chronicling her childhood in Oklahoma and her desperate search for ways to run away from home through photography, foreign languages, and more, very straight memoir, right, guys?

Now, here’s another one that’s more of this profile variety, ultrarunner and world traveler. Actually, this one’s a profile again or a memoir again. Ultrarunner and world traveler, Rickey Gates’s untitled book, chronicling through photos and stories, his unsupported 3,500 mile run across the continental United States. “Roam” by Maggie Downs, travel and lifestyle writer Maggie Downs’s “Roam: The Trip of my Dying Mother’s Lifetime,” which details the journalist trip around the world to complete her dying mother’s bucket list and how the journey led her to bigger adventures sending her in Egypt during the Arab Spring and traveling across Africa, Asia, and South America. So that is a very quest-oriented piece. This one, I have seen this one before, and I think this is really interesting. “Judy Garland Slept Here,” celebrity interviewer, Alan Petrucelli’s “Judy Garland Slept Here: The Country’s Campiest, Kitschiest, and Most Important Gay Attractions to See Before You Die,” an informal, entertaining, one-of-a-kind travel guide focusing on some of the more iconic queer-friendly sights, destinations, and attractions in America.

Here’s another one which is this kind of combination of something that the author did with some general knowledge. Suzanne Kamata’s “Squeaky Wheels: Travels with my Daughter by Train, Plane, Metro, Tuk-Tuk and Wheel Chair, part comparative culture study, part mother and daughter travel memoir about multicultural and multilingual adventures with her teen, a dual citizenship artist who happens to be deaf with cerebral palsy through suburban Tennessee to the islands of Japan to the top of the Eiffel Tower and ultimately to independence. So here, we’re touching on a trend is accessible travel coupled with this memoir, coupled with telling you about cultures, all sorts of different things. It seems like she’s touching on a lot of things. But it seems to be more through a type of quest oriented lens.

She’s narrowed down to the story of her author of her daughter gaining independence. I’m just gonna look at a couple more in here, but I hope that some of these are giving you guys ideas of like, “Well, crap, like I thought about writing a blog about that, but I never thought I could just write a book about that. Wouldn’t that be so much easier and have success quicker and give me money and then make me more position to have an actual blog about that?” So here’s another one, travel writer Tory Bilski’s “Horses of the Midnight Sun: A Travel Memoir of Iceland” recounting her 12 summers at a horse farm in Thingeyrar, a windswept place of haunting, desolate beauty, run by Helga, an Icelandic horse whisperer.

She spends a week each year with a group of kindred female souls, all of whom are besotted with Icelandic horses, love of places, wild rides, growing friendships, and unexpected adventures each year bring about a discovery of self for the author. Now, this one, “Bourdain,” very much touching in a trend as well, very biography oriented. So I’m gonna skip down to a couple more that I think are a little more apropos to the type of books that we would be writing. So here. This one is a great one. Journalist and food stylist Hannah Kirchner’s “Foreign Woman Works in Sake Bar,” a travel memoir exploring craft, culture, and purpose alongside the masters and artisans of the Japanese mountain village, Yamanaka.

How many of you guys, and I mean, I know for a lot of you guys but how many of you in your travels have been somewhere, whether it’s for a month or a year or more or less where you’ve got to really know some super specific and interesting subculture? Let’s see if there’s a couple other ones here to share with you guys quickly. And then I’ll look over like I said in this other tab. I’m going to do a different search rather than doing travel and Colombia. I’m gonna just look for Colombia. And I wanna also show you guys how it works to figure out the agents from here. So here’s a good one, another two good ones that I wanted to show you.

So author of “The New Paris,” American ex-pat in Paris and journalist for New York Times, Conde Nast Traveler, and Fortune magazine’s Lindsay Tramuta’s “The New Parisiennes,” lifting the veil on the myth of Parisian women, profiling them as they truly are in all their diversity and complexity, arguing that Paris is blooming into a cultural center of feminine power that backs tradition with an appendix that features the new Parisiennes’ favorite cultural institutions, spots for wellness and mindfulness, shops, parks, artistic venues, cocktails bars, places of worship, women owned businesses, classes, and more.

So things like this, even if you’re like, “Well, I don’t write for Conde Nast Traveler and the New York Times,” things like this show you what the editors will buy, what agents will be interested in even if you’re not that person. And interestingly enough, I can tell you because I know the advantage that you get from this place that this is a smaller press and that this person with her and like inordinate background as a journalist could have probably gotten herself a bigger deal with this book as well. So this here. This one I’m just zeroing in on because of two things, which is one is that I know this person because this book is lovely. It was co-written by her and a chef that I know and also because chaat is an ancestry [SP] food and I love it so much. But here, I’m just wanna share two more from here and then we’re gonna talk about agents in the second.

So Nashville chef and restaurateur and judge of the Food Network Program “Chopped,” Maneet Chauhan and food and travel writer and “North” author, Jody Eddy’s “The Chaat Express,” a travelogue cookbook that will journey my train along the iconic Indian rail system to explore the diverse regional street foods of the vast nation. That is the kind of thing that somebody should pitch for here for the US. There’s so many different ideas like this that you can take out of Publishers Marketplace and just say, “Wow, I mean, I should just do that here.”

So here’s “Eat Like a Local: France,” a guide showing travelers how to shop in specialty stores and prepare simple yet delicious local recipes with the limited equipment of a rental kitchen, along with stories about French, food, culture. So what happens if you see one of these and you’re like, “Okay, yeah, like I really like this idea. I don’t wanna write a book exactly like that, but I love this book idea.” What you should always do is you should check the bottom here. It says sold to Nina Shield at Tarcher Perigee. This is the editor at the publishing house, by. Now, this person is the agent that represents that author. Let me get you a couple other ones by Janis and by Rica. So when you’re in Publishers Marketplace and you click on any of these, then you get to the page for the agent, and here, you can see what types of books this agent represents. And you can also get the agent’s email address and you can also get the link to find out what types of things editor wants. You can find out how to pitch them and you can see…I’m hoping that some of these are on here. Hold on.

You can actually see how big of an advance the author has received. So here you see it says, “In a good deal.” That good is actually a sign of how much money has been made in this deal. Let me see if I can…I remember I saw this recently. Hold on. Let me cue this up for you guys. There’s a way where you can see how big the deal is just by these little words. They say in a good deal, in a great deal, in a nice deal. And those things all tell you about the size of the deal. Now, a couple other things I’m seeing are at auction and at a preempt. These, unfortunately, don’t tell you the size of the deal. But usually if you see either of those two words, it means it was for a quite a lot of money. So what you can do is not only use this resource to find agents that you might wanna reach out to, to find what books are being published and see what type of thing might make sense for you to be pitching as well and to see which agents you wanna pitch those things to, but you can also figure out which…I’m trying to see if I can find this on here. You can find out which…oh, shoot. I’m sorry. I can’t find you the size of this. But you can find out which agents are actually earning the most money for their clients. Is that insane?

So I’m just gonna show you one person in particular who I know has a number of these deals so that you can see how it works.

With the deal sizes, what happens is that the different numbers or the different sort of code words like I said, they all lead to different size deals. But there’s also a place on any particular agent’s page where you can see how many six-figure deals they’ve come across as well. So if you are really like, “Okay. I wanna do this book, but I need to be able to get an advance off of it that will allow me to pay for my family, to pay for my living while I’m working on this book, and I can be able to do both things at once,” you can click this little button here or you can just check the numbers and see how many six-figure deals this agent has done. And that helps you in a way that so many writers don’t think about. They just think, “Oh, what agent might be interested in me? What agent might take me?” But as you can see from this list that we were looking at of…here it is. No, where did it go? Of all of these different books, all of these different deals being done about travel, there are so many agents out there publishing books about travel.

There are so many publishing houses publishing books about travel that you wanna position yourself to get the best deal that you’re gonna get. And you do that first by making sure that you have an idea that fits into the types of things that are being bought. And like I said, some of them are ripped from the headlines, GOOP contributor. Here’s somebody who is a canine Instagram superstar. How can you align your idea with something that’s ripped out of the headlines? Or if you can’t, how can you align that with an interesting person or subgroup and do it by biography style? And then you look. You click on all these agents and you see who is doing well, who has the six-figure deals, who has the nice deals, who has the good deals. And then you go through and you say Colombia. Who is doing Columbia? And you look through and you check out all these deals. Here’s 30 deals. Find every single agent who has recently sold a book about this or maybe I don’t wanna look just about the place. Maybe I wanna look about culture or maybe I wanna look for biographies of cultural groups or whatever that is. And all you do is you throw it in here and you say, “Great, 35 deals. Let me go through here and pull out every agent, list those deals and that’s who I’m gonna pitch my book to.”

So thank you guys so much for joining me today and I look forward to chatting with you more next week.

Article Nuts and Bolts: Putting Together an As-Told-To Feature Transcript

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And we’re gonna go ahead and get started. This week we’re talking about something very, very different. This is the As-Told-To feature. And this is something that doesn’t come up as much in the travel genre specifically as it does in women’s magazines or other sort of deep…I would say, not that we think of women’s magazines as deep journalism, but other outlets where they’re doing some really compelling stories. And this can happen because As-Told-To features or As-Told-To stories at all have some very particular characteristics that keep the majority of stories from working well as an As-Sold-To feature.

So today, what we’re going to talk about specifically is to begin with why we’ve saved these pieces for last. As I mentioned, they’re quite different than a lot of other types of stories that you’ll see. And one of the reasons that we’ve saved these for last is that the various different storytelling and articles structure in journalism techniques that we’ve developed over the last few months of this article nuts and bolts series are going to come together, and we’re going to look at how. And then I’m gonna walk you through several different aspects of how these As-Told-To stories are very different than other types of articles you would write, and not necessarily in the ways that you would think.

You might find, after we look at some of them, that you don’t even feel like they’re articles in the traditional sense, that they seem to be more like oral storytelling stories or something like that. And we’ll discuss why that is and how that approaches how you write them. And then because everything that I say kind of seems a bit abstract when I just tell you about it, then we’re going to get into, I’ve pulled up three different examples from three different outlets of As-Told-To stories that are short enough that we can look at them now together, and also I’ve pulled up a few different examples from one outlet where they publish one of these every issue so that we can kind of look at how they change from one issue to another. And then we’re gonna talk about how you pitch these pieces.

So like I said, this week we’re going to talk about these As-Told-To pieces. And there’s a really specific reason that I saved them not only to the end of the month where we’re talking about pieces that really revolve around one person and one subject, but also until the end of this entire series. And that’s because in so many ways, these pieces are not…they’re not journalism in a certain sense. We started this series way, way back when…we started this series talking about news briefs. We looked at the inverted pyramid that makes up a news brief. We talked about how reporters focus on who, what, where, when, why, and how you can write those things at the top of the page to get through your story without forgetting anything, and making sure that you pack everything into the small spaces. News briefs are typically 100, maybe 200 words. That’s where we started.

And now we’ve gone through all sorts of different types of features that you can write, features that you can write as a round up or as a narrative, as a profile of a business, as a profile of a person, how you can take the same type of story and write it very, very short or write it very, very long. And now at the end of this long journey, like I said, we’ve been doing these alternating months of article nuts and bolts webinars with other webinars going back all the way to the beginning of the year.

Now, at the end of this long journey, we’ve arrived at something which might not feel like this would be the epitome of your writing skills, but that if you can pull this off, you can kind of write anything. So why is that? Why is it that these As-Told-To pieces are really the culmination of everything we’ve talked about? Like I said, I’ll explain kind of what they look like, but it’ll make a lot more sense when you see them.

But a very defining feature of an As-Told-To story is that it’s written in the first person, but it’s not written by the person who experienced the thing being described. So in many ways, you can almost think of this As-Told-To person story like you’re writing fiction in the first person. You’re writing something that is not from your own experience, as if it were, and you have to avoid bringing yourself your thoughts, your background, and your experience into that story. And both elicit from the person and rely entirely on what they said to create all of these other types of things we’ve been talking about, creating a sense of beats throughout a piece, creating a sense where the motivation and the emotion of the subject changes. You need to also create a sense of transformation throughout the piece.

And none of these things are easy in the first place when you’re writing about something that happened to you or that you’ve researched extensively. But it’s a whole other world when you are not only writing about a different person’s experience, as we saw when we looked at the profile pieces, which are also a very artful connection of different threads, but you’re not only doing that with someone else’s experience but you’re also writing it in the first person, as if it with you was you without letting yourself enter the story. And that’s why in many ways, like I said, this feels more akin to the challenge of writing a piece of fiction in the first person than it will feel to writing other pieces of journalism.

So something that I read when I was looking up kind of some different techniques that different writing professors and other people use to talk about As-Told-To pieces was this that I thought was a very good framing mechanism. And we’ll get into why you need a framing mechanism to make sure you’re on point with your first-person pieces on the next slide, but I wanted to lead into it with this, that As-Told-To piece should focus on the belief that only using the subject’s words and phrases will make the article accurate and truthful.

Now what that translates into is this sense of truth is something you can say a lot of fiction aspires to have, a sense of truth by talking from fiction to find a sense of deeper truth and all we could go la, la and all sorts of literary things like that. But this idea of something that is accurate and truthful means that we are representing another person’s experience. And this is one of the central dividing lines with why something is done as an As-Told-To piece rather than done as a profile or as a feature that might be a reported feature or your first-person experience of interacting with this person.

And that’s because you need the impact, the emotional weight of that person to really convey what they have gone through in this instance. And this is why one of the reasons that you see a lot of As-Told-To pieces in women’s magazines or things of that ilk like “Reader’s Digest” or something like that is because they’re often done as these very…you can almost say exposey, but very tell-all type pieces about something rather horrible that happened to a person, which was horrible but very important and very resonant for other people where you need to use the person’s words for that weight to come across.

Because if you did it as a third person piece as it was reported, or you wrote it as a profile, it would be about this thing that had happened, but you would miss that impact, that impact that this event or this circumstance or some…we’ll look at one where they’re talking about an item, someone else is talking about their job, we’ll miss the impact that that person has had on or the thing has had on that person when we just intersperse quotes with background that’s written in the third person. So the big differentiator here is that it’s not just the quotes that are in the first person. We’re not just using quotes for color, which is something that we’ve talked about in some of the earlier webinars in this series, especially in the last month where we’re talking about stories that relate to an individual person, rather than using quotes as an offset of different things that are more distanced more in the third person, particularly for background or it could also be description of the person or of their environment. What we’re doing is we’re allowing that individual’s voice and that individuals perception of the world and the events that happened to them to drive the story completely.

So what that means is that whatever a writing an As-Told-To about, it needs to be so singularly focused on something of very great importance to the person that you’re writing the As-Told-To about, that their experience and that weight can also create weight for others. So we did…it might have even been last year. A while back, we did a webinar on personal essays. And I talked about how even though you’re talking about something that is personal to you, something that happened to you, a few different things that happened to you and you’re weaving back and forth between the present in your personal history and things are going on in the world and all these stuff, it should arrive at something universal, it shouldn’t touch on universal things throughout.

When we talk about writing features or also we talked about writing profiles more recently, we talk about going on a journey of transformation that arrives at a realization that has universal impact. So when we look at these As-Told-To pieces, we’re limiting the field so much. It needs to be something where if it’s not written by that person, it just won’t seem as important, and it needs to be, in terms of content, it needs to be about something where that person can speak to it in a way that has universal implications.

So you can, in a way, think of this, like, if you were to be writing an article about an experience that you had, what would be the instances where you would have to write it in first person, where you couldn’t write that same story about that same thing that happened and write it in third person? So there was someone that had joined us for the boot camp recently, and she describes herself as an emerging SIS. She’s really new to writing in this way and writing for travel specifically, but she’s been doing a lot of work with me for coaching. And she’s been coming to a lot of conferences and really working on her craft and her style. And she’s just overflowing with all these ideas that are intensely in the personal essay format.

Not everybody is and that’s totally fine, but the types of ideas that work as personal essays that you as a writer might have, are also the ones that work as As-Told-To pieces when you hear someone else mention them. So these are moments like there was a really wonderful story many years back in one of the writing anthologies. I believe it was the “The Best Women’s Travel Writing” or something like that. It was about a woman who is young and blonde and thin and lovely, and goes, I believe it’s an Egypt, she goes to the souk, she goes to the market.

But she goes out in a burka, and she goes around the market in a burka. And she has been spending time in this place without a burka before this. So she already kind of has a sense of how she’s usually viewed, how she usually goes around the world, what her interactions are usually like. And the story is essentially showing how she now understands the beauty of the burka, that as a woman it actually frees you. This is what she was saying in her piece. “It frees you from the leers, from the comments, from all of those things. It allows you to move about in the world without having to endure, worry about encounter, or be waylaid by any of those things.” At the end of the piece, she takes the burka off and she goes back into the souk. And she, you know, reiterates what it’s like to now be sort of chained by her freedom, if you want to say that.

So this is a piece that you couldn’t have that same impact writing that same piece in the third person. If you had been at a dinner party and heard this person tell you that story, you couldn’t write that for her. You couldn’t write a third person story about her piece. Either she would have to write it up herself or you can develop a knack for writing these As-Told-To pieces. So I put one caveat here on the slide, which is that if you feel like you don’t have a good understanding of when it’s more appropriate or only appropriate to write something in a first-person style rather than a third person style, I highly recommend going to, you know, the digital newsstand or your local newsstand and just picking up a couple of travel magazines and flipping through the feature sections, and comparing the features that are written in first person to the features that are written in third person. Because you’ll get a sense very quickly for how third person creates that distance in the piece and what that means. So if you don’t already have a sense of when you’re interested in writing these As-Told-To stories, that’s a trick that I recommend for helping yourself understand that.

Now the other thing that happens when we’re writing as this other person is that we can’t be ourselves. And that has multiple layers. We can be ourselves obviously in terms of our opinions. So as you’re writing in this I, I, I of the other person, you’re never commenting upon what the person has said. But besides that, you’re also not writing as a journalist. That includes other background or other facts. All of the background and the facts need to come from that person’s experience and things that that person have said or things that they said, “Oh, yeah, well, so and so told me.” You can include the little bits of what legally would be called hearsay, but little little bits of motivation that they brought in from something they read somewhere or something they heard somewhere, but because they told you that, okay?

Now, what this means is you need to really focus only on what the person knows about the topic at hand. And that’s why, like I said earlier, is that it’s really important that these are things where the person, first of all, has a very, very deep connection with the subject that they’re talking about, so there’s enough to write about. But second of all, that that connection has some sort of universality, that other people can learn something, be moved by, identify with that experience.

And we talked, I believe it was two webinars ago when we talked about interviews, we talked about how when you are editing an interview, you’re sometimes, it depends on the magazine, you’re sometimes going to put the things in the chronological order in which they appeared in the interview, which won’t necessarily be chronological for how they matter or how you would put together a story that has a chronology and what came first and what came later. But that you’re often moving around the component parts of that interview to make the interview itself have an arc, to make the interview have a sense of movement so that someone reads all the way to the end. And in profile, this is especially the case. You’re really creating a lot of different scenes there and putting those together.

But here in As-Told-To piece, it’s an entirely different story how you are moving those things around for the chronology. Because here, unlike an interview where you’re really trying to keep kind of chunks of texts together or sentences or something like that, here you’re essentially ripping apart the words of the whole interview and putting it back together in a way that makes sense as a story.

So one way that you can think of this, if you’ve ever done this, is…I’m not sure if any of you have experienced doing translation from another language, whether on purpose or just accidentally. I know there’s some people who, I’m not sure if any of them are on the call today, just looking at the list, but I know there’s some people who follow us who very regularly will do reporting in another country. For instance, when I first started I was doing a lot of writing for Italy magazines, so obviously I was doing a lot of my interviews in Italian but then I was writing for a British audience, so then I was even translating for myself from, you know, my American into their British English but all also from my interviews that were being done in Italian, then into what I was writing. There’s somebody, for instance, who’s working on a guidebook right now in South America, and so she’s very regularly interviewing people in Spanish but then the guidebook that she’s writing is going to be in English.

So some of you may have found yourself because you speak two languages or because you’re just somewhere where the predominant language is in English and you’re trying to figure things out, that you’re already naturally translating what people around you are saying into what you put into your piece or into how that colors your piece or different things like that. And I feel like with an As-Told-To piece, much more so than with an interview or a profile where you’re really looking for those kind of money quotes, those quotes that really shine, you’re often looking at how to kind of translate what they’re saying into something that still sounds like them, but in a new language, which is storytelling language, okay? And there are places and we’ll look at this in a bit, there are places where you really specifically want to look for one type of quote, or you want to specifically pull out one thing that they’ve said and you kind of want to hold on to that and keep it all in one piece. But that’s not what’s going to happen the majority of the time.

So like I said, I think even more so than with some of the other things that we’ve looked at, here you really want to be seeing the articles live and in person. So before we talk about structure, before we talk about what these kind of look like in terms of their shape, I want you to see/hear a couple of these. So I’m gonna blow this up so hopefully the text will be a little bit bigger than for you. And I know it’s always a little smaller the way that it comes through, but this hopefully you guys can see. So you see this is the title is “A High Maintenance Co-creator on Her Favorite Possessions.” And they call the story of a thing. And she is the co-creator of the HBO show, “High Maintenance,” now in its second season, and here she’s seen her New York apartment with her favorite possessions, chairs passed down from her great aunt. So they say right here up at the top As-Told-To with the date. This often happens with As-Told-To pieces as well. Okay?

So there’s just a little bit of an intro here. In this series for tea, Emily Spivack, the author of Warren stories interviews creative types about their most prized possession. Inside the “High Maintenance” co-creator Katja Blichfeld’s apartment, there are two chairs that once belonged her enigmatic aunt. Here she in details how they serve as a reminder of her Tonto Laura and of the way she wants to live her life. So now we’ve transferred over to the first person and it’s the first person of Katja but being written by Emily. Okay? “My Dad’s aunt, Laura, who we call Tonto Laura was one of the two relatives that I had stateside. Everyone else lived in Denmark. Tonto Laura followed her husband to the United States from Denmark in the 1920s. She worked as a nanny and did some housekeeping while her husband was a bartender. Things with him weren’t as picturesque as she hoped they would be. He had a drinking problem. He was a ladies man, but she was religious, a ‘Good girl’ from a rural Presbyterian family, and she never would have left.

She probably thought it was her duty to stay with him. She led a solitary and quiet life even when her husband was alive. She got up in the morning, made herself coffee and breakfast, washed her dishes, ran her non-electric vacuum cleaner, put on her hat and gloves and took the bus to buy groceries and twice a week went to church. I think about how Laura was never able to self-actualize because of the way she thought things were supposed to be, both because of her religion and because of the times. I don’t know if she ever picked her head up from her mundane drudgery to ask, ‘Is this all there is?’ I don’t know what her inner life was like. I don’t know if she had dreams or aspirations outside of domestic life.”

And this is a photograph of her aunt that she’s put out on one of the chairs for them to see during the interview. “Towards the end of her life, I noticed she would read these cheap romance novels that she probably got from church bazaars. Or she made comments about attractive men, like I wouldn’t kick him out of bed for eating crackers. But she was never a sexual being to me. She always felt old and her manner very repressed. My aunt remains a mystery to me. It was her repressed side but underneath it, she was a romantic. I mean, she traveled across the world from Denmark to the U.S. to follow her heart. I would have traveled across the country for love, so I can relate. There’s something kind of poetic about that connection.

“These chairs were in Tonto Laura’s apartment in San Francisco until she died in the early 2000s and she was in her late 90’s, I have photos of my parents sitting in those chairs when my mother was pregnant with me. Since my aunt never had children, my parents cleaned out her apartment after she passed away. They brought these chairs to me in Chicago. Since then, they’ve been with me in six or seven apartments in New York, moved to Los Angeles and back to New York. I think about Tonto Laura more now that she’s gone than when I did when she was alive. And these chairs remind me not to get caught up in a cycle of living by some sort of prescribed notion, not to get caught in a trap of expectation, because she didn’t have a chance to experiment. I feel like I’m honoring my aunt’s memory by doing things she never felt like she could do.” Okay?

So this one here, I’m just going to make it smaller so we can see multiple paragraphs all at once. This one here, I would say it’s probably about less than 500 words, maybe this one is even 350 words but it could be up to 500 words. So let’s look a little bit about what we see in terms of the structure here. And then I’ll pull up the other two that I have for you. And like I said, one of them, I’ve got a bunch of different iterations of that in the magazine that it appears in. And let me know, like I said, in the chat box when I’m reading and we’re breaking down an article. I’m usually on the other screen so I can see the article. So if you have a question drop in the chat box, and I will get back over to it as soon as I get back to the box.

So here, what do we have with the structure? Okay, they’ve got these photos to kind of break it up. And we can kind of imagine how this might look on the page because obviously “New York Times” is print. And they’ve got what would maybe be like, you know, two half-page columns next to each other with this text. And they start, and you’ll see this, they tend to start by just diving right into it. They go right into my dad’s aunt Laura, who we called Tonto Laura, was one of the two relatives that I had stateside. Everyone else lived in Denmark.

So she tells you what the story is going to be about and she drops the background and then we go right into the background. Laura followed her husband. We talked about what she did. We’ve got a wrinkle, what was hard for her? So this is very, very typical storytelling. Okay? We set out what the topic is and what the kind of status quo is and then we throw in a wrinkle and then we look at how that wrinkle evolves over time. Okay? Is that even though she had this problem, she didn’t do anything about it. So what evolved over time here for the “Author,” for the person who told this piece to the person who wrote it, what evolved here was that she wonders how Laura spent her time.

Was it really the way that it seems or did this complication that we saw up above, did that actually change what was going on in her internal life? She’s not sure but she talks about little hints that she saw that there may have been something more than what she knew going on. So we have a little bit of an arc here about how her thoughts about her aunt Laura were evolving. And then we get into sort of the next, you could call it beat, but it’s kind of almost the climax here is that these thoughts on Laura evolved and what she felt about her aunt and what her aunt reminded her of.

She talks about how she feels a connection to it, but also she kind of…not resents but she definitely questions the decisions that he made. And then she talks about how the chairs came into her life and now they are in many ways a constant reminder to her. But they’re not a sad reminder. They’re not a reminder of the things that she, you know, I don’t necessarily wanna say didn’t admire, but they’re not a reminder of the things that she questioned about her aunt, so much is what she has learned from her aunt about how to live her life. So a very short and sweet little piece here but they cover a lot.

They cover a lot of the background of the aunt, they cover a lot of little things, these kind of, you know, we could call them quotes, but they’re really just memory quotes, right? And they’ve got some little details, like these books that she would get, or you know, the routine in detail. She got up, made herself breakfast, coffee. She creates a lot of little scenes in here even though she’s not using a lot of words, she’s not using a lot of dialogue. There’s not necessarily a huge sense of action scene in that way where like two people are sitting and talking, but you definitely can have those in an As-Told-To piece as well.

So that’s just a little bit of the arc here. They really get right into it, they go into the background. They kind of hint at the question here, which is, you know, “Would you stay?” Right? And then we move through this other question, “Is this all there is?” And then, “Would I do the same thing? Into, “How do I incorporate that into my life now?” So you can see how like a personal essay, as we talked about in the personal essay one, it really moves through these ideas of questions that you pose yourself that guide your thinking. Now, did this person who told the piece to the person who wrote the piece tell it exactly like this? No, there was a lot of editing to get it into this format. And that’s where the difficulty and the beauty of the As-Told-To piece comes in.

So this next one that I want to show you, this is really interesting. This is a section in “Sierra Magazine”, which is $1 a word market. It’s very environment focused. It’s a national magazine of the Sierra Club. In “Sierra Magazine” every month, they have this section called The Faces of Clean Energy, okay? So it’s a recurring section each month that is an As-Told-To piece. And if I’m not mistaken, this one is on sort of on record as being around 500 words, okay?

So let’s have a look at this one. This is the faces of clean energy and this one in particular, the title is, “The Crazy Lifestyle of the Woman Who Repairs Wind Turbine Blades,” when she’s not as what we’re talking about, who we’re talking about, and then we dive right into the background. So listen here for the complication, listen for the wrinkle. So as I’m going through the piece and talking, if you spot the wrinkle, if you spot that complication that hints at what’s to come and what the piece is really gonna be about, let us know that in the chat box when you see it.

So she begins, “I’m a climber, a singer-songwriter, and a conservationist. I grew up in Rexford, a tiny town in Montana about two hours northwest of Glacier National Park. My dad worked for the U.S. Forest Service for 35 years and is also a climber. He instilled in me an appreciation for the environment and the outdoors early on. I performed my music in 31 countries and have seen the effects of traffic, deforestation, and overpopulation. I started feeling like I was creating a big footprint flying across the world and not doing very much for the earth. So I started brainstorming with a bunch of friends about how we can use our climbing skills to help the environment rather than hurt it. In parentheses, there are a lot of jobs that utilize climbing in the oil industry.

One of them told me that I should join a rope partner as a rope access technician to service wind turbines. I’ve worked there for five years. The company is based in Santa Cruz, California, but we repair wind turbine blades all around the globe. The job requires advanced rock climbing and rope rigging skills. Technicians work in high-speed turbines on turbine towers that are between 262 and 328 feet tall. First, we climb a ladder in the inside of the tower and in Gar ropes. Then we repel off the nose cone and secure ourselves to the blunt side of the wind turbine blade. Our repair supplies are then hauled up in buckets. It’s a really physical job. Out of Rope Partner’s of 75 technicians, I’m one of only 2 women in the field. That’s because not as many women have the skill sets needed. You also need expertise in fiberglass repair. And I just happen to have fiberglass skills because I was a firefighter for seven years working at the Hot Shot bays helping to repair water tenders.

“It’s a crazy lifestyle, you’re constantly traveling since each job is four to six weeks in a different location. You have to do some very technical stuff and keep your cool. When you’re up on the tower, you have a main rope and a backup. In my opinion, this is safer than driving to work every day. For some jobs, you can be up there six to eight hours, so you have to train your body to work in high winds. Even on a low wind day, you’ll get bucked around since you’re up really high. And you have to be careful because one side of the wind turbine blade is so sharp, it could cut your rope. Blades are tricky. They have many layers and each turbines’ blades are different. So you’ll often be on the phone with engineers while up in the air. I had a close call once during a brush fire in Idaho, I was at a job and the fire was pretty far away. The firefighters were dropping water on it, so I felt really safe.

“Then, after a couple hours, the wind suddenly started to guest to 26 miles per hour, which is our limit for working on the ropes. The fire flanked us on both sides and the wind started to come up rapidly. We finished packing up and climbed down as soon as we could. Before we got down, we saw a barn burn down completely. Luckily no one was hurt and everyone got out on time. We work mostly between spring and fall so I can spend the winter relaxing with family and friends. I’m into rafting and I also go climbing. It’s easy and so much more fun because I’m not weighed down with a harness that I use at work that has the tools and gear. I do traditional crack climbing because that’s less invasive. I use gear called cams to insert into cracks in the rock and then take them out. So I leave no trace.

I’ve climbed in 17 countries including Cambodia, Laos, and Thailand. Argentina is one of my favorite places, Patagonia and El Chalten in particular. I also love climbing in Spain and at India Creek in Utah. The job has definitely changed me. It’s created a deep appreciation for family time and free time. The work is so physical and so intense that whenever I’m not working, all of the other things in life like people bickering, don’t bother me. I have peace and patience for all of the other moments in my life. I appreciate the simple things, like drinking tea in the morning.” We’ve got a question over here and someone else said that they lost volume, so hopefully other people are hearing. And somebody has a question about the practicalities of conducting these interview pieces. As in, do you take written notes or record and transcribe, what do editors tend to expect? I just wanna wrap up talking about this particular piece.

So I don’t know if anybody noticed here, but this one was really different than that other one. So the other one was in “New York Times”, and this one is in CRS. So you can definitely see a difference in the quality of writing because, like I said, As-Told-To pieces are quite difficult to write. So this one is a lot more, let’s call it straight, okay? So it’s really kind of presented in a very chronological way. They move through kind of topic by topic that they’re talking about, you know, her background, what she did before, how she had the idea to get into rock climbing…oh, sorry, kind of rock climbing as wind repairs, and then the particularities of how this works. So she gives the specific kind of stats and all that, she describes what it looks like, she talks about how it can get dangerous, and what her lifestyle is like. So what we have to remember here is that this article and this section as a whole is intended to talk about the faces of clean energy.

So what that means is that, they’re really aiming to present what different people’s lives are like, and how different people from different backgrounds could come in to this field, how you might be doing something totally different and decide to come into this field. So what they’ve done here in this piece, like I said, even though it’s presented very straight, very chronologically, very logically, in terms of how everything is put together, is they’ve really shown how somebody can be doing something completely different and move into this field. The skill sets required for this specific field, they painted a very clear picture of what the job entails while also kind of describing it in a way where if this might be your cup of tea, you can start to kind of hear how it would be a little exciting. And right as they’re talking about how it gets exciting, they also make sure to very specifically outline what are the worst risks that you can have. They also talked about how your rope can be cut. But at the same time, she says that she feels like this for her is safer than commuting every day to work in a car.

So what’s the twist here really? I think that the twist here and what she circles back to at the end, she talks about how what her work schedule is like and she brings back up that she travels, right? That she travels all these countries and she talks about how it’s changed her so she appreciates things in her life more. Whereas up here at the top, she was talking about how when she was younger, she really appreciated the environment and the outdoors and these things. And then she kinda got into this lifestyle where she was going around as a musician performing and being in lots of different cities and felt like she personally had a big footprint and how I think the really kind of the…that this is like the complication is that she got into this thing that was at odds with her values. And then at the end of the piece, we see how it’s brought her back to that.

So that, like I said, the complication tends to come out quite early on in these pieces, especially when they’re only 500 words. So when they’re 500 words, you’re probably gonna see that happening in more like the second paragraph, whereas when they are longer, when they’re really feature length, like you’re looking at something more like 1000 words, 1500 words, 2000 words, 2500 words. I’ve seen these pieces come in like 3000 words in some of the women’s magazines. In those cases that complication is probably gonna come up more like in the third or fourth paragraph. So Sally had an interesting question here about the practicalities of conducting these interview pieces. So I wasn’t sure if she meant for interview pieces that we had discussed in the other webinar or for this, but it seems kind of like generally for any kind of piece that involves interviews, which would be all of the different four pieces that we’re talking about this month in this webinar series.

So I think that we’ve touched on this a little bit on one of the earlier webinars that was more specifically around interviews. But I’ll just kind of talk about some different approaches here to interviewing. So someone told me the other day that they’ve started taking their laptop along for in-person interviews. And I’m like, “Don’t do that, don’t ever do that.” So I actually really like to do interviews by phone when appropriate. When we looked at profiles, you can’t really do a profile and do it by phone because you need to be describing the person quite a bit. So you really need to spend time with someone to do a profile. It’s very important to incorporate those elements into what you’re writing. But with any sort of other interview piece, especially like the celebrity favorites one we talked about this last week, even this one you could really do by phone.

I really like to do it by phone and I like to take notes as I’m talking with them simultaneously because I think not just for myself but I’ve seen for other people that there’s a lot of reticence and friction against going back and re-listening to your whole interview. First of all, because people don’t like listening to themselves and second of all, because then you’re just having to type up something that already happened. So I personally am a big fan and have really worked on honing these skills over the years of taking your notes while you do interviews. Most of the people that I know who do recordings like really just rue having to go back through it later. If you have set up the finances coming in through your travel writing well enough, you can farm those out to a transcriptionist. But I promise you, you won’t be all that much more comfortable with hearing yourself even if you’re just reading what you have said.

You can kinda skip over it but it’s really not more comfortable as you would think, than not having to just hear your own voice. I say that as somebody who has their calls transcribed every single week. So what editors expect is something of that is going to vary from publication to publication, and that’s something that is also gonna vary from interview source to interview source. So somebody who is a celebrity or has other some other position where what they say really needs to be audited by a lot of people, those will need to be recorded even if you’re also taking notes for fact-checking purposes. With something like this As-Told-To piece however, you’re not using the sentences necessarily exactly…well, for sure you’re not using them in the order that they came out of the person’s mouth but you’re not necessarily even gonna use them in the same structure.

I’ve had a lot of times where I took quotes and I would mash different sentences together to cut out a lot of the kind of, you know, flabbiness in-between some different things that a person had said in order to get a sentence that fit into the length of the article that I needed to write, but still incorporated the thing that the person said. So there’s a lot of types of whether it’s these interview pieces, or quotes that are gonna go on a profile, or particularly in these As-Told-Two sections, where you…what you’re really looking to do is to take what the person said and chop it up quite a bit. So for this As-Told-To piece, if you’re not typing what the person said pretty much verbatim, then you definitely wanna have a recording because in these As-Told-To pieces, you’re really writing the whole thing as a first-person thing.

And so it can be really useful to also have the tone of voice on record if you’re not really, really fast with taking those notes as you go through because you’re having to recreate this, like I said, as if the person wrote it. And with this one, like I said, this is definitely one that’s a bit more dry then this one was over here. And I’m gonna show you one more that also is a bit more…we could call it emotive. And this one is talking also more about this person’s background, okay? So in this one, that tone of voice element isn’t gonna be quite as important but what is gonna be important is these numbers. She’s got so, so very many numbers in here and a lot of very specific details, like which country she’s been sourced, who was working with you on this piece to have to just tell you the same thing like three, four times because you didn’t get it down properly in one way, shape, or form the first place.

So in general for interviews, do something where you know you won’t have to do that and for As-Told-To pieces I think that recording it is probably the best way to go because you’ll likely be with them in person and you don’t wanna be sitting there taking notes on your laptop while you’re with them in person. So let’s look at one last piece here. This one as you saw above, is called, “A Music Man by Chance.” “My father was Italian and was called up for World War Two on his wedding day. He was captured in Africa by the British in early 1914 and taken to the village of Long Stratton, Norfolk. As a prisoner of war, he was sent to work on local farms and one invited him back after the war. He returned in 1948 with my mother and year-old brother. By 1957, he’d saved enough to buy a farmhouse and five acres.

“We raised poultry, chicken and ducks. I went to the local primary school in Norfolk. There were 48 kids in the class, I would typically come in 47th or 48th. I really wasn’t motivated in primary school. When we were 11, all of us took the 11 plus exam for entry into Grammar School, which would place us on a college preparatory track. I was one of only two students to pass. I’m sure the headmaster was shocked. I’m fairly adventurous. At 13, I was into cycle speedway, which is track racing on a bicycle. I spent every waking hour doing it, holidays, weekends, and evenings. I was doing pretty well in school, but I dropped to the lowest half of the class. My mother, the sweetest lady on the planet took my bike away, and my grades rose. I had more of a sporting childhood and played cricket and soccer.

“My sports master, the gym teacher, sent home a report card just after the cycle Speedway and said, he said, ‘He works hard, is energetic and talented but must spend less time criticizing others and more time focusing on his own game.’ Maybe he didn’t see me as the captain of the team or maybe he did because later, he made me captain of everything. My earliest memories of music were listening to Radio Luxembourg on a bush transistor radio under the covers when I was six or seven. We had another radio in the house, a rectangular wooden wireless with big plastic knobs, but you couldn’t take that to bed. I shared a room with my brother and we listened to Guy Mitchell and Brenda Lee.

When I was 13, my brother and I hitchhiked to the coastal town of Great Yarmouth, about 35 miles away, to hear the Beatles. Most people didn’t have cars, publication or public transportation was costly and infrequent. Hitchhiking was a safe way to travel if you didn’t have money and had plenty of time, especially if you weren’t alone. From the first part of the first song, which I think was “I Wanna Hold Your Hand”, everybody, boys and girls in the crowd of about 2000 or 3000 started screaming. The band played to screaming from beginning to end. It was hysteria. I didn’t expect to be in the music business. I spent 27 years in the food industry. My first job after majoring in physics at King’s College, London was as a market research assistant in a chocolate company. I was involved in introducing Kit-Kat to the United States. In 1993, when I was full-time CEO in the food business, I was made an outside director of EMI. I had become chairman in just six years.

 

“Growing up, when we lived on a farm, we had our own vegetables and our own meat. We ate Italian. My mother experimented all the time. She never made the same dish twice. I learned how to cook at the university. I lived in an apartment with three or four others and we took turns. Some were so bad at it that I guess I did most of it. I’ve done grocery shopping all my adult life, it’s a professional interest. I go alone and take forever. I shop with a basic list and take home two times as much as I intend to buy. I like to explore what’s available and watch other people shopping. I don’t clip coupons and I’m very aware of promotions, I can’t resist a bargain. As a physics major, I have an affinity for technology. And I developed power of analysis, though I’m not a physicist at heart. I think I’m an amateur. An amateur student of people and what motivates them.” So you’ll see this is a very different As-Told-To piece.

This also has kind of like a little bio of him at the end. And with this one, you can see it’s really very biological, okay? In terms of…or biographical rather. It really kind of goes through his background, his kind of history as a family, also his history as a student. So you can almost look at this as a very straight biography in the way that profiles are straightly intended to create a picture of an individual. This is really intended to create a picture of this individual who’s the CEO of a major corporation. But with his words, and why is that important? Because think about this, if this was written as a profile of him and we were mentioning these things about these stories from school and all that stuff, it would be so distant and so dry to have a profile of a CEO saying when he was young, he was fairly adventurous, and at 13 went to the cycle Speedway, which is a track race on a bicycle.

You know, it just has so much more power of evocation in your mind of picturing him to have it done here as a first-person piece, okay? So I just wanna get back for a minute to the slides and have us look at how we pitch these pieces. And this kind of lines up what Sally was asking before, about how do we go about interviewing these. But I also just wanna go back and before we get into pitching them, look at the structure if you will, because that’s really what we’re looking for in these article nuts and bolts pieces, but more kind of what these pieces look like on the page. So if you remember, we looked at three very different pieces. We looked at the one that was on the Tonto Laura’s chairs, we looked at the one that was from the rope access technician, and then we looked at the one by the CEO about his upbringing and how he never expected to be in the music business and how he came from this background in food specifically in rural England, okay?

So in each of these, as I mentioned, there’s a lot of very straight chronology going on. First, they kind of introduce who they are. In the case of the last one he didn’t quite exactly start it right at the beginning. He said, “My father was Italian and called up in World War Two.” So he goes right back to the beginning here. But we really see some very direct chronology in all these pieces. And that’s very common. But it’s important to remember that when you’re interviewing these sources, it’s not gonna come out like that in the way they speak to you. It’s not gonna come out in this very clean, “Here’s the beginning.” They’re gonna be telling you different things they remember from all over the place, and then you will be pulling them and putting them into this chronology.

One of the reasons that we use these very strict chronology here, is that it can be difficult, to go back to what Sally said about how do we conduct these interviews practically, it can be difficult to in an interview elicit all the information from them, go home and put it together in terms of how it works out chronologically, and then think of some crazy interesting crafty ways to go in and out of the scenes as we do with the profile piece of Woody Harrelson that we looked at, for instance. After having speaking spoken to them, you can go back and get more, but in a piece of this length you wouldn’t. If you were doing one of these 2500 or 3000 words As-Told-To pieces, you’re gonna go back and forth with the source many, many times, okay? To get that done. But at this length, you don’t have to. At this length, you’re gonna interview them very deeply. And then you’re gonna see what you have and you’re gonna put it together.

So another thing, like I said, that we experienced here is that all of these people are talking about things that they have a lot of knowledge about, and a connection to and that have something larger. The way for instance that one relative who maybe didn’t play such a large part in your life can really influence how you live your life. The way that, you know, your parents’ decisions can influence how the turns that your life takes and might be why you ended up where you are today. The way that looking back to find your roots can still allow you to exercise all of your passions and build the life that you want. These are three kind of universal way of looking at those three pieces that we just looked at just now. So then how do we pitch these? Okay?

So more than any other piece we’ve discussed, you have to be absolutely 100% bought in from the source before you go and pitch this piece. Because their name is on it oftentimes right alongside your own, if not before your own where the piece is listed, okay? So you have to not only have permission with them to do the piece, but make sure that they understand that it will look like it’s written by them. And not everyone’s gonna be cool with that. But what that translates to, which also is really interesting, is that after you write the piece, you need to give it back to them so that they can be sure that it sounds like them. So this is where we get into this odd space between ghostwriting and writing As-Told-To pieces.

So when you’re ghostwriting, somebody tells you things, you look at other things they’ve written, you kind of talk to them a couple times to get their voice. And then you sit down and you write something that sounds like something that they would have written. And they may give more or less time reviewing it to see if it actually sounds like them. So I’ve done a lot of ghostwriting in my previous career when I was at MIT. I know a number of you who do, whether it’s ghostwriting blog posts for your content marketing clients. There was somebody at the event this weekend who had a cool type of content marketing she used to do which was that she would write first person kind of point of view, influencer style, state of the industry posts, destined for LinkedIn for the CEO of a major tourism CVB.

So there’s so many different places that this ghostwriting thing can take you. But what’s different with these As-Told-To pieces, like I said, is that you can write an article for a magazine as a ghostwriter under somebody else’s name, but that’s not gonna fly as an As-Told-To piece. It really has to be something where there’s this emotional weight. So for it to run in the times or in “Sierra” or in something like that, as an As-Told-To piece, it really needs to have that sense that it has to be written by that person but the story has to be told well, so someone else needs to get involved. So what that means is that when you pitch these, you need to be cognizant of what the arc, what the story arc that you wanna include is. So that’s a little weird because you would have had to interview the person first, right? But somehow you got the idea that they would make a perfect As-Told-To piece.

So you must have already heard from them something about their story. So we often go around for instance, last week when we were having a summer camp for coaching students, we went out to a lot of venues. We went to a place where the owner of this winery who bought it not too many years back, just has this amazing story, both that he used to be the proprietor of a very famous restaurant that’s kind of like a see and be seen place outside of New York, but also that the way that he decided to buy this winery was just all of these kind of divine intervention type things. And, you know, he had a loss in his family and the way that this property and the timing of how it just appeared to him. And I couldn’t imagine somebody doing that as a reported piece, you would have to write it as him. So often, you’ll be out and you’ll hear business owners talking about how they started their business, or how this thing happened in their lives or something. And that just has as told you As-Told-To story written all over it.

And that means you’re like, “Okay, great. I know that this person has this great story. He told me when I interviewed him the other day, this story. Now I’m gonna ask his permission and then I’m gonna go write it.” And then when you go to write it again, you say, “You know, I know you talked to me about this the other day, I wanna make sure that I get it all down. You know, I’ll come out to where you are with my microphone and we’ll sit together for a couple hours and we’ll talk some more. And then I’ll go write it up and then you’ll be able to look at it. How does that sound to you?” Okay? So that’s how you would kind of pitch that to the source. Then to the editor, you’ll write a very slim down, like a one paragraph version of this bio and the arc of the person that you want to pitch.

But it’s very important that you don’t write an attempt to dazzle the editor with your style, that you don’t write the piece as a first person…or sorry, another piece. That you don’t write the pitch as a first-person thing like it’s being written by the person you wanna write in their voice. Okay? You need to write it very clearly that you’re a journalist, and you’re pitching to write an As-Told-To piece centered on this person. And here’s the person and here’s their story. And then, would the editor be interested in that piece? And the more important thing is to make sure that the outlet that you’re looking at has even published As-Told-To pieces in the past because these aren’t the most prevalent things. And you’ll see them like I showed you to that were from the times actually, “Sierra” has that section.

A lot of the big dollar word type markets have them, in fact, but you just wanna make sure before sending it to them that it is something that they do.

And thank you guys so much. I hope you have a great next week holiday, if you’re in a place where next week is a holiday. And I will see or talk to some of you guys after the holiday. Bye-bye.

Article Nuts and Bolts: Putting Together a Celebrity Favorites Piece Transcript

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This week, we are talking about putting together a celebrity favorites piece. We’re gonna talk about what that really means. I’ve had somebody ask me this before, is this a name that we would use with editors? Like is this the thing that we would call, this type of piece, with an editor? And the answer is no. With an editor, you’re gonna call the piece whatever she calls it, or he calls it in his or her magazine. The names that we talk about now are names that are to help you for educational purposes, they are not necessarily gonna be ones that everybody uses.

And part of that is because some people have gone to journalism schools, some people haven’t gone to journalism school, some people have just learned from their staff. There’s all sorts of different ways that people come into this. But most editors know what their magazine publishes. And so I see this happen a lot at conferences where an editor who doesn’t also teach or something like that might get asked, “Well, how does it work?” And they’ll say something and other people in the audience listening will be like, “No, that’s not how it works.” But that’s how it works for one editor.

So this is always something worth keeping in mind, that every editor or every publication has a silo in terms of the terminology they use, the sections they have, and they run things in their way, and that way isn’t necessarily gonna be the same everywhere. So that’s really something worth keeping in mind, not just when you’re pitching a piece in terms of terminology like I was just saying, but for all sorts of stuff. If you have…I’ve seen a few of these lately. If you have a weird email interaction with an editor, for instance, does that reflect on you? It might especially if you get three of them, but it also can just be a reflection on that person, that editor, or more largely about the culture at that organization at that publication.

So we’re gonna talk about what celebrity favorite pieces mean, of course, and we’re gonna look at what they look like. But first of all, we’re gonna look at why on earth it is such a thing that magazines, especially in the travel space, but all over the place, have these pieces where they have a celebrity and they tell you a little bit about a celebrity. And then they tell you this celebrity’s picks for whatever. Why do people care about this? We’re gonna talk about that. And then we’re gonna talk about who counts as a celebrity in these sections? What can you really feature here, what does that really mean?

And then I’ve pulled several different examples for you guys. I’ve got two that we’re gonna look at from “Delta Sky,” and the same section but a couple different iterations of it from “AFAR.” And we’ll look at, in detail, as many of those as we can depending on how time allows. But I’ve got several different ones for you from those two different magazines. And then we’re gonna talk about how you pitch these pieces.

So like I said, today, we’re gonna talk about why on earth are magazines publishing so many of Gwyneth Paltrow’s wellness picks, for instance, or, you know, Anthony Zimmer packing tips. Why do people care so much about so and so’s recommendation, so and so celebrity, that may or may not be a super great expert on that talent? They’re just a famous person or they might not even have spectacular taste as far as cuisine goes. Why are magazines featuring them?

There’s a very simple thing that I’m sure that you’ve seen if you’ve ever gone to a newsstand, which is that it’s almost rare for magazines to have covers that don’t feature celebrities. We are here right now at the summer camp for coaching students, we’ve been going around all week on some different tours, both getting to know the Hudson Valley and practicing being out on Fan trips for those who are newer to travel writing. But also talking about all sorts of different things that come up in these situations we’ve been talking about. How you quote people from interview, how you follow up, how you put together a pitch based on your experience on the ground, at a site, and your interview with somebody and the quotes that you got.

But we’ve also been going to some really interesting places that you just might not think of writing, or think about, or think of going to, and seeing what kind of press they’ve gotten before we go there. A lot of places will have their press clippings up on the wall, that’s not unusual, but what we found that has been really interesting is that places that I haven’t even been to before, I haven’t taken groups to, will have articles up the wazoo from huge news and publications.

So we’ve been looking at a lot of these covers and, you know “Popular Mechanics” had people on the cover, “Whiskey Advocate,” people on the cover. You wouldn’t think from the topics of these magazines that they would necessarily have to have people on the cover, but it is what sells. So what happens is let’s say a magazine wants to have celebrities on the cover because it sells, because people will pick them up on the newsstand out of curiosity. And what do they do with those celebrities? Not every magazine has the type of audience where they’re looking for, you know, of course, not celebrity gossip in a travel setting, but they might also not be looking for a feature that’s really centered around anything having to do with a celebrity.

You will see these in the airline magazines, they do have celebrity profiles that are kind of how this person became big, what’s going on in their life, you know, perhaps they’re struggling with addiction or something like that. But that’s not always going to be relevant, “AFAR,” for instance, which we’ll look at later, they focus on experiential travel, and, you know, they could have celebrity oriented features, where they’re gonna talk about, you know, let’s say…I’m trying to think of a relevant example here without thinking of Anthony Bourdain because he’s just all over the news right now.

So let’s just take Anthony Bourdain, let’s say, Anthony Bourdain hiked Mount Everest, and he was talking about that from experiential travel perspective as a first-person story. That would be kind of a celebrity piece but it would really be just a piece written by Anthony Bourdain, right? Would “AFAR” have Oprah hiking to the top of Mount Everest? I don’t know how that would really fit for them, even though it is going to be an adventure travel, experiential travel, which is more their thing.

So what often magazines will do to still kind of have that celebrity component is to do these celebrity favorites. And they just seem like the weirdest little pieces, because they take a celebrity, what you kind of would think of or perhaps associate with something like, you know, either a gossip-oriented magazine. Or, you know, just a profile about movies, say, or if it’s, you know, a sports star or something like that, more about their career. So these things take a celebrity, so they take that brand name, but then they turn around very quickly into service information for the reader.

And that is the beauty of these celebrity favorites pieces, is that it allows you to check both of those boxes. To have that name that makes people say, “Oh,” but also to give information that’s highly usable for the reader. Now, like I said, we’re gonna…I have several of these queued up for you. We’re gonna look at some examples of these later, so you can see exactly how they fall out on the page. But this is a direct extension of what we talked about last week.

Which is that if you are interviewing somebody, you can interview them through different lenses, with different questions or just pulling different answers from those different questions, and chop a bunch of pieces up from it. So for instance, if you’re already gonna be interviewing somebody, you can add a few questions about where they’ve traveled recently, or where they live, their favorite place to do this, that, and the other thing there, and then you magically have a celebrity favorites piece. And this also is gonna help you with one of the issues of pitching these pieces, which we’re gonna come back to later when we talk about pitching these pieces at the end of the call.

Because there’s a very distinct issue with how to pitch these pieces which is easily solved if you’ve already done the interview, and just tacked on a question or two about this at the end. So these pieces, in fact, can be very hard to pitch, but the flipside of that is that means that editors are always looking for pitches for them. So why are they hard to pitch? Because you have to have access to a celebrity who would work for this piece, who will answer your kind of random questions that are not about what movie they’re currently working on, okay?

So what that means is that because these can be really difficult for magazines to fill in, is that they often have a sort of wide view of what celebrity might mean. Now, when I say wide view, this isn’t gonna be what we talked about last week. And let me know in the chat box if you were with us for last week’s webinar which was the interview nuts and bolts webinar.

So last week, we talked about how there are interview pieces that are more with a section of society that we could kind of call a man on the street. And what I mean by that is that this person could be your next-door neighbor, and you might not know that they’re a titan of the industry that they’re in. They’re not somebody whose picture would be necessarily in a glossy magazine, outside of the profession. They’re not somebody who necessarily even in the neighborhood, everybody would know what they do, but in their field, they’re known.

So it’s very, very, very easy to find these people. You can find them in science, you can find them by just picking up a book, somebody who’s written a book, and is a luminary in their field, you can go through “TED Talks,” you can ask people, you know, if they know somebody who’s done something interesting like run ultra-marathons on every continent, things like that. These man on the street people are very easy to find.

So when I say that the editors, in order to make these celebrity favorites pieces happen, have a sort of wide view of what celebrity means. I actually don’t mean that their wide view goes all the way into these man on the street celebrities. That’s a bit uncommon because the idea with these celebrity favorites pieces is that the name of the celebrity should be big enough that it will entice people off of the name. So what that means is that these names should be relatively recognizable, or at least you can quickly be convinced that this person is gonna be like a Googly eyed celebrity for the audience of the magazine in question.

Now, that’s the important part, what I just said, that they’re going to make some google eyed or what not for the audience of the magazine in question. Because we’ll look at “Delta Sky” which has a very general audience, and you’ll see that there…there’s gonna be two different pieces we’re gonna look at, two different types of pieces. One is gonna be a name that you kinda need to know. And the other one a little not so much, and we’ll see how they treat that differently in the introduction, and how that plays out differently with the pieces.

But the idea is that it should be someone who is at least relevant to, important to, in a sector that touches the reader. When we look at “AFAR,” their celebrity favorites piece is all about chefs. Is “AFAR” only a food magazine? No, but it takes this idea of experiential travel quite far in terms of food travel. And so that is what they do and they feature celebrity favorites through the lens of a “Wandering Chef” in a city that they have visited. So we’re gonna look a little bit more about what counts as celebrity specifically in the context of “AFAR,” in the context of that “Wandering Chef” piece that I just told you.

Because it’s not always going to be quite as luminary as you might think, because again, these editors are publishing these sections month after month, after month, after month, and they’re gonna run out of, you know, the top restaurants in the world, chefs from the top restaurants in the world, what have you. They’re gonna run out of those kind of people, so they need to look at not just what they can get, but who’s got something that’s got an interesting time peg right now as well. We’ll see how that plays in with the “Delta Sky” pieces.

But let’s look for a second first at “AFAR.” So this is what they say about their section that I mentioned that’s called “Wandering Chef.” So it’s a front of book section, it’s not very long. I’ll verify the word count for you as well by looking in our database because, of course, some writer’s guidelines don’t provide such specific information for you. But the idea is that this is a column that as you can see here, I just pulled the description exactly out of their writer’s guidelines. So this is a column where they’ve given their self that width, they’ve given themselves a bit of wiggle room in case they can’t find somebody.

The very first thing that they say here is, “Chefs or other artisans that know the ins and outs of a particular destination.” Now, this is very interesting because the…first of all, like I said, they’ve got chefs and other artisans, but then they also say, “Who know the ins and outs of a particular destination and have a unique perspective on it.” Also, this is different than what “AFAR” originally had. They originally had a very specific rubric here, we talked a lot about rubrics last week, where they wanted a chef who had recently traveled to a specific city.

How do you reliably get a steady stream of interesting chefs who have just come back from somewhere interesting, who are willing to talk to somebody rather on your staff or a freelance writer? That’s tough. So you can see that they’ve both brought in who they’re gonna talk to as well as what they’re gonna talk to them about. So they say, “We have featured everything from famous composers who record in Iceland to sommeliers with an obsession for a certain region. Foremost, these are personalities who are highly informed in the area and have an unusual point of view on the area.”

So like I said, I have a couple of those open, we’ll see how it plays out, but I wanted to continue on that course of what is celebrity? What counts as celebrity? So let’s look at some people that they featured. So it’s a little bit small here on the slide, but I just goggled “AFAR Wandering Chef,” so you can absolutely do the same if you’re interested. But here you can see the names of the people that they featured recently, and what they have featured them about. So we’ve got some names here and there are some that I clicked on for you to open, Michael Solomonov and René Redzepi. These are two pretty big names in food these days. Also, Chris Cosentino, I’ve heard of, but less so much is James Lowe.

Now, on each of these, even just the preview that we’ve got here in Google itself, they’re telling you right away who each of these chefs are, and why you care. So the first one here, they say Michael Lomonaco, the chef of Porter House New York and Center Bar. They say Michael Solomonov is the chef behind Philadelphia’s modern Israeli restaurant, Zahav. They’ve got René Redzepi who kinda needs no introduction but they say the chef behind the world’s best restaurant at least according to this list. Chris Cosentino, they say the offal-obsessed chef of San Francisco’s Incanto Restaurant. For Chef James Lowe he’s of the London-based food collective the Young Turks.

So they’re telling you who all these people are, and like I said, most of you will probably only if you’ve heard of any of these especially if you’re not in food have heard of René Redzepi, or at least Noma, the restaurant that he’s attached to. But you might not have heard of Michael Solomonov, or you might not have heard of Chris Cosentino. Now, if we go further down the list on Google, then we get more people that I’m not familiar with, and we’ve got here someone who is the chef behind Hong Kong’s hip Yakitori Gastropub Yardbird.

So this is something also their primarily American base readership would probably have no way of knowing this guy. It does say he was previously in New York, though. They’ve got somebody who is chef and owner of New York City’s Little Owl. We’ve got someone who’s a chef of San Francisco’s SPQR, a lovely place if you ever have the opportunity to go. We’ve got a chef who’s built a mini-empire of 15 restaurants in 5 cities including Mercat in Chicago, and a chef, Chris Shepherd, of Houston’s Underbelly who was named one of “Food & Wine Magazine’s Best New Chefs in America” this year.

So like I said, celebrity here, they’re giving themselves a lot of latitude about how celebrity you really need to be, and also they’ve widened it. Like they said they’ve featured composers and different things like that. So when it comes to these celebrity favorites, it’s important to know that it’s not just about getting for them the chef from the top restaurant in the world. It’s not about getting for them a chef from the “Food Network.” It’s not about getting a movie star, it’s not about getting a politician. It’s about getting somebody that has a unique hook for that section.

So in the case of “AFAR’s Wandering Chef,” it’s gonna be someone who is a chef or artisan, who has a connection to a city that might not be where that person lives, right? If we look back at these for a second, what cities do we have here? We’ve got New York, we’ve got this one, I’m not quite sure where he’s from. But we’ve got Oahu, Ecuador, Puerto Rico, Rome, Israel, Tokyo, Montreal, Mexico City. So they’re looking to cover a city that they haven’t covered before also. So you’re looking to find someone who can speak to a city that they haven’t covered in that section before more so than you’re looking for somebody famous.

Whereas if we’re looking at the section in Delta, that we’re gonna look at later, they are looking for somebody who is relatively household name famous, but has something going on in the news. They need to know why they should feature this person now. Might be the person has a movie coming out. We’ve looked at this section in a previous webinar and they had featured Jose Andres for the section, who is a chef based in D.C. but he had been very heavily involved to the tune of millions and millions of dollars in the relief effort in Puerto Rico following the hurricane.

But then you’ll see that in the same magazine, their concept of what counts as celebrity, and then whether that time peg is really important is gonna be different for the second celebrity favorites piece that we look at. So there’s just no hard and fast rule here about what counts as celebrity, and that will also translate into the celebrity’s bio at the top of the piece. And I’ll show you how that works out.

So what typically happens in terms of the structure here is that you will primarily be writing the bio or the top of the piece or the intro if you wanna call it that. And the recommendations themselves might come verbatim from the person. This is particularly in the case of the celebrity, really famous celebrity-driven piece in “Delta Sky” that we’re gonna look at. But what that means is that these pieces are an absolute snap to write up.

It takes you very, very little time because you’re not even as you were with the interview pieces that we looked at last week, going through a whole interview, trying to figure out what’s a nice arc for the interview. What’s a nice way to kind of move through the person’s background, why they care about what they care about, why they’re doing what they’re doing now, what they’re gonna do next. You don’t have to hunt those, you don’t have to worry about trimming down into beautiful blocks of text that sound like the person said this paragraph perfectly off the top of their head after you remove all the ums and incomplete sentences and all of those things.

You’re just gonna pull a couple sentences of why they love this restaurant, or this shop, or this park, okay? So that makes it really easy to write these up, but also like I said, it’s important here with a lead which like I said is gonna be most of what you write to be really tuned in to what the specific magazine is looking for there. Because they’re not gonna be a basic celebrity bio, they’re gonna be a lot more like what we looked at last year where the timeliness of this person, the timeliness of why we care about this person’s recommendations right now. Whether they’re involved in something new, like a hot new movie, they’ve reached a certain level of success in their career such as winning an award.

Whatever that is, is gonna be heavily filtered into how they tie in with the topic that’s touched on in the rest of the bullet points. So that little bit of intro, which might be 100 words, maybe 150, has a very tall ask, it’s really got a lot that it needs to get done up there. Needs to give a sense of who the person is, or very clearly showing how they tie into the time peg, and also showing how they tie into the destination of the greater topic that’s explored in the roundup bullet points below.

So I feel like these pieces are heavily visual because they tend to have a lot of graphical layout kind of elements. So I want to move over to those now, and I’ve got two from “Delta Sky” where I’m gonna show you how they look like on the page, and then we’ll look at two from “AFAR” online. And I’ll give you the links for those on “AFAR” as well so that you can follow along with those or have them to look at later.

So let’s start…I’m gonna switch the screen over. Let’s start by looking at these two from “Delta sky.” Here we’ve got…as I mentioned, we’ve got two very different types of celebrity favorite pieces, and I’ll make this as big for you as I can. So we’ve got two different types of celebrity favorite pieces. Now, this one which runs in “Delta Sky” every month, it’s called “My Bag,” and this is what the person being featured has in their bag when they travel.

Now, this…sorry about that. I’m trying to blow it up for you. This one might, just from the name… I recognize this Matt McCue character or Matt McCue. This might be written in-house, so I would definitely check the database before you go out and pitch this piece because you’re gonna feel like, “Wow, that looks easy. I could pitch it out to anybody.” So definitely check the database to make sure this isn’t written in-house. I’m pulling it up to show you as an example of an article and not necessarily as an example of something you can pitch.

So hopefully, this is big enough. I wanna make it so that we can see…I think you can hopefully see the text, but I wanna make sure you can also see the layout on the page. So here we’ve got a bit over 100 words, the person being featured here, her name is Chriselle Lim. She’s an entrepreneur and a digital influencer. If we were to think about entrepreneur, digital influencer, what does that mean? It probably, to us, means somebody who has a blog based business, okay?

So not necessarily gonna be a hugely difficult person for us to track down in our circles. Now, what she does now is much larger, let’s see what they say about her in the introduction. “When people used to ask Chriselle Lim what she wanted to be when she grew up, she would say a boss.” “I didn’t know what that meant but I wanted to build a business,” says Lim, 33. Today, she runs “The Chriselle Factor,” a 10-person L.A.-based fashion and beauty hub for women in their mid-20s. And recently launched her Chriselle x J.O.A. clothing collection with Nordstrom. Lim’s YouTube video tutorials are also a hit, 65.1 million views and counting. Thanks to their educational focus. Quote, “The purpose isn’t just to get inspired but to teach viewers tips they can apply to their lives,” says Lim.”

So in this little piece here, we’re tying into what the section about, right? The section is about what’s in her bag, as opposed to tips in a specific place which I had mentioned we’re gonna look at in the other one. And you’ll see down here on the bottom, we’ll read this in a second, they’ve got her quotes here. There’s very little here, here just says, “Olive oil from Milan,” but this is a very formulaic type of interview like I said last week, you know, you often get the questions from the magazine’s format rather than coming up with them yourself.

But this is a very formulaic type of interview which instead of being presented as an interview, with her whole block of text, has very heavily edited down slim sentences that are all based on recommendations. So let’s look back up here though at how this interview plays out. So we’ve got a little bit of a lead here which goes into a quote, so we could kind of almost say that from this 33 back, that that’s our lead here, all right? So it sets up for us how she…we don’t necessarily know yet that she’s pretty young. I mean, we know from her age that she’s 33 before.

But in that first sentence, we just know this is something that she always wanted to do. She didn’t know what she was going to do but this is something she’s always wanted. And then we hear more about exactly what she does now, and we hear this in a lot of detail about what her company does and her clothing connection with Nordstrom. And here, what’s the time peg? The time peg is that she recently launched something that you can now get at Nordstrom nationwide.

So that’s the peg here. The peg is that here is a person who’s clearly been doing something interesting for a bit, she’s got 65.1 million views and counting on her YouTube channel. Now, it seems like that’s probably a total number of views from all her videos, but it’s not super clear to me what that number is. But we can definitely say that she was clearly doing something great for a while, but the specific time peg is that she’s recently launched her clothing collection with Nordstrom. And so that is gonna be how she ties in to the topic of this roundup section which is that she’s showing what’s in her suitcase. She’s somebody who has a sense of fashion, okay?

Now, if this instead were her talking about L.A., they would probably instead talk about how long ago she had moved to L.A., kind of, you know, that she built her business there, something like that, okay? So in this intro, though, this is really important. In these pieces, they very rarely basically never will explain or kind of elaborate on the things that are mentioned below. The intro is very much a separate element that’s almost a mini piece itself about this person. You could call it a mini bio, maybe a mini-profile, but it’s typically highly divorced from the person or from the products or places being featured below.

I just saw we had a question. It’s a little hard for me to see questions when I’m reading the thing, but we’ve got, how would a freelance writer source photos then especially of the celebrity? So to put together a piece like this, you will have to interview the person. As you can see, there’s quotes here. On the bottom, is all quotes. So you would ask them for a photo, or you would take a photo when you were interviewing them. And if this is an interview that you would do by phone because it’s a short piece, even if it pays a dollar a word, it’s still only $300.

If you’re doing this interview by phone, then you would get a piece from their publicist, or from that person, or from their business, or something like that. So then let’s look at how this gets put together. So there’s nine recommendations here, and they’ve also got like a special digital feature where they’ve also put together a playlist of her favorite songs. But let’s look at the “text of the roundup” here.

Now, unlike most roundups, and unlike the next one we’re gonna see, the text is not attached right underneath the photo, it’s down here. So I can’t quite show all of it on one page. So the first question is her preferred travel outfit, she says, “If it’s a five-hour flight to New York, I’ll resort to stretchy jeans from Mother. I also like to wear Puma sneakers and a trench coat from Acne Studios.”

So you can see that they show the jeans and they show the Pumas, and they have them separately and they say one plus nine. But the question here was, what’s your preferred travel outfit? Now, you can see she said, “If it’s a five-hour flight to New York,” so she may have then said something else, but if it’s a longer flight or but if it’s a shorter flight. So she may have said something else here and the person writing this piece decided how much of that to include probably in concert with the people that were sourcing the photos.

So the question here isn’t just gonna be like as we had in the chat box, it’s not just gonna be, how do you source photos of the individual, but how do you source photos of these items? So these items either would have been photographed because this is Delta and it’s a big magazine. They either would have gotten the items and photographed them in-house of the magazine, or they would have gotten press photos from all these different places. And I would wager, for instance, that this one in the middle is probably gonna be just a press photo from that resort, and several of these may be as well.

So let’s continue on. So they’ve got, what’s your most recent souvenir? And it says, “Olive oil from Milan.” Now, I’m trying to see if I can tell. I’m not sure if this olive oil would really necessarily have even been the olive oil that she got, okay? So the next one is, what is your preferred in-flight entertainment? As I imagine how they would have asked it to her. But here, just as briefly, in-flight entertainment. She says, “On a recent trip to Europe, I watched the whole season of “Big Little Lies.” The last movie was “Hidden Figures.””

And so here they’ve got a little picture that’s meant to look like an in-flight screen where they show a little screenshot of “Hidden Figures.” Where would they get that photo from? They for sure would have to get that from the press distributor for that movie, okay? And the question is also, is it your job as a freelance writer to source these images for “Delta Sky?” Absolutely not. It’s only your job to write the piece. And I would say that most places, as in most magazines in which you would be writing a celebrity favorites type piece, are gonna be places where someone else is gonna find the photo for you.

I actually really, really recommend against as much as you can sticking to for too much of your career the kind of magazines where they expect you to source the photos and that’s part of your rate. That should be a separate thing even if you’re shooting the photos. It should be a separate thing that you should be paid for. You should get $1,000 for your dollar per word 1,000 piece, and another $1,000 for your photos. So if you’re not in that position yet, it’s something that you want to be working towards.

So then what’s the next question? What is her beloved spot in L.A.? “Bestia, it’s very meat-heavy,” she says, “Gracias Madre for vegan Mexican food. And the Griffith Observatory for hiking and best views of L.A.” So they’ve showed that just with a photo here which I imagine is from this Bestia place as well. Bucket list trip? Amanyara in Turks and Caicos. That’s not in quotations, so clearly she was talking about it and they couldn’t cut that quote to be quite sure enough. But they pulled it out from her, “It’s supposedly the nicest resort on earth.”

Not necessarily a super, super punchy quote, but that’s the thing about the celebrity favorites pieces, is that there’s very, very little text. It’s not verbose, it’s as tight as we can make it. Now, as I said before, this intro covers all sorts of her in about 120 words, and down here, it’s about the same. So these are typically very short pieces because they need space for these photos like you’ll see as we go on to the next one here in Delta as well.

Next question is best new fashion trend. So here we’ve got a full quote from her and it’s quite long because fashion’s important for her, right? “The return of feminine dressing and I think that my new collection really reflects that. There’s one dress called the Cocoon Sleeve dress that reminds me of a piece Audrey Hepburn would have worn but modernized.” And this is like I said definitely gonna be the longest quote in the piece. You can see nothing else. All of these black subject heads, there’s no other place where we go so along between black subject heads.

Now, you’ll see because of this layout, it’s okay to do that. In the next one we’re gonna look at where the layout’s little more balanced, it would look weird if one was a lot longer than the other. Which then really forces your hand and what kind of quotes you’re gonna use. You’re not just picking what you think best represents all these things. You also need to think about what the layout is gonna look like after you hand the piece in. And they need to all be similar because otherwise, the editor is just gonna edit down your things and you’re not gonna like how it’s been edited.

Last two questions here in her in-flight reading. “Right now,” she said, “I’m reading “The Happiest Toddler on the Block.” For magazines I like “Vogue.” Favorite suitcase, I always use a black TUMI rolling carry-on.” So let’s skip ahead here and look at the next celebrity favorites piece here in Delta. As you can see, by the way, this is the May 2018 issue of “Delta Sky” and you can get that on…you can download it directly from the Delta Sky website if you’re interested in checking out these pieces or Delta later. So you can just google Delta full issues and you’ll find it that way.

So let’s look here. This section is called My favorite Street, and this is Joe…I know he pronounces his name in a way that’s slightly weird. He’s an Italian speaker I’m pretty sure he says, Manganiello, instead of Manganiello. I’m not exactly sure what he says. So we’ve got an actor here and his favorite street that he’s speaking on…as you can see a picture up here of the street is Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles. Now, this intro is even shorter. We’re looking here maybe barely 100 words.

And then how does the layout work out? We’ve got some things that he recommends, down here, we’ve got some photos. And then they’ve got a little sidebar type thing where they give you the address, and the website, for each of the places that we talk about. And it’s a little unusual because they talk about them, and they’ve got the photo up here. And like I said, you have to be really cognizant as a writer of how this piece is gonna look, and this piece always looks very similar that all of the words of each of the thing that you’re gonna feature need to fit into here, into these tiny, tiny spaces. But thankfully, that’s not gonna include the address or the web address.

So let’s look at how they introduce him. Now, he’s an actor and they’re gonna talk about a project that he’s working on now. They’re also gonna kinda tell you who he is in case you don’t know. And then they’re also going to tie him in to Los Angeles. That’s what they have to accomplish here, and particularly Sunset Boulevard.

So it begins, “Seeing yourself on a Hollywood billboard is a true L.A. moment. For actor Joe Manganiello, it happened unexpectedly. One day during lunch at Soho House, he looked over at a nearby building and saw a giant mural going up for the TV show “True Blood.”” ‘That was the first poster I was included on,’ he recalls. Most recently audiences saw…” Wow, it won’t let me go without saying his name over and over again.

“Audiences saw Manganiello in the film “Rampage” in which he plays a former Navy SEAL who’s head of security for a pharmaceutical company, at which a genetic-editing experiment goes awry. Think supersized animals. Manganiello was lucky to be able to draw on a little insider’s knowledge for the role having previously trained with the SEALS and kept in touch. ‘These are guys I have on my speed dial,’ he says.”

So super light here on the tie, and again, to the things that are mentioned below. They really touch just a little bit on his kind of L.A. moment or his L.A. connection. And he, for instance, is married to Sofia Vergara. You know, people say only half-jokingly that women are typically mentioned as the wife of so and so, but men are never mentioned as the husband of so and so. And so you’ll see that’s not mentioned here, but also it’s very short and there’s not really a lot of place to talk much about him besides his L.A. connection and his current movie.

Now, you’ll see that they do go into quite a bit of detail about the movie, they’ve got like a good block of, you know, three, four lines here talking about what it is. And quite long wordy ones as well. A pharmaceutical company, genetic-editing experiment. So why do they do this? Because this is part of how magazines or writers are able to get these celebrities to do these celebrities’ favorite pieces, is because a celebrity has a movie going out. And this will allow something talking about the movie to appear in a big magazine in the way that that content marketing…because that’s really what it is.

This piece in a way is content marketing for a film. The way that that content marketing happens is by having the celebrity talk about something that’s interesting to the magazine. So speaking of excellent content marketing, I don’t know if you guys have been following this, but “Jurassic World”…the new “Jurassic World” movie which I think isn’t even out yet, I think it comes out on Friday. I have been seeing it all over the news for weeks. They have done an amazing job not just with marketing for the film, but with the content marketing for the film.

They took over a TV show called “American Ninja” and had a Jurassic World night and they set it up outside in New York or L.A. or whatever it was filmed. And people could play with the dinosaurs and jump around on the things. They also have a hotel room and I guess it would be Universal Studios, Disney, I’m not sure who made the film. They’ve got a hotel room that is, in fact, Jurassic World theme that’s been being written up the hospitality magazines like in Condé Nast and things like that.

So this is one of the reasons why you shouldn’t feel so nervous about these pieces, because if somebody has something that they need to promote, it’s part of their job. So that’s part of their job to talk to you and to give these recommendations, and to do these things. So we looked at how this piece is put together, and like I said, it’s largely about what he has going on that’s new with just a bit about his kind of L.A. connection here. Is when he felt like he made it in L.A. and how this street is important to him.

So now, let’s look at his recommendations, and like I mentioned, these recommendations may have very, very, very little to do with what was discussed in the intro, but be just kind of things that are interesting to this person in this town. So he talks about Chateau Marmont and these again, you’ll see almost every single one, there’s a little bit here that’s not his quote, and this one isn’t his quote. But there’s a lot here that’s just directly words from him from the interview. So they say there’s a lot of history at this hotel.

“From Jim Morrison to John Belushi and everyone who came after them, I’ll hold meetings there or have breakfast in the garden. Subliminal Projects. This is Shepard Fairey’s art gallery. He’s been a friend for years and I love going to his art shows. They have great musical guests at some of the openings.” Now, does this seem like there may have been some other sentences in here or that he may have said, “We’ve been a friend for years, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like I always love going to his art shows because they have great musical guests in some of the openings?”

So these, like I said, highly edited quotes here. Now, Soho House, this, he did mention up here. “Soho House West Hollywood. This private members’ club has an incredible view of L.A. and it’s good for a business lunch or brunch with the family on the weekends.” The last one here, “Golden Apple Comics. Beloved for almost 40 years. You can hear the change here.” Now, we’ve got journalistic language instead of his quotes. “Beloved for almost 40 years. This store is a collector’s dream with walls of comic books, graphic novels, action figures, posters, trading cards, and more to choose from.”

I think it’s quite interesting personally that they don’t have the quote from him talking about why he loves this place, but that’s just my opinion. So let’s switch over. These, like I said, are super, super brief. Let’s see how this plays out in a different context which is going to be “AFAR Magazine.” And we’re going to look at their “Wandering Chef” section that we’ve been talking about for a little bit earlier in the call.

But as I mentioned, these are going to be pieces that aren’t laid out, these are pieces online. So this isn’t showing you that same kind of visual that I really wanted to make sure that we looked at, when we looked at the ones that were in the “Delta Sky” print issue. So I’ve got for you here, this is Michael Solomonov like I mentioned before. He is an Israeli chef and, well, I don’t know about you guys, but I got completely distracted by Austria’s new James Bond museum, I’m going to open that for later.

So he is an Israeli chef. He kind of brought modern Israeli cuisine that’s been a big thing in America, he really kind of brought it to be what it is. And so here, this is his take on…I’m not sure that it’s specifically Tel Aviv. It seems like it’s going to be all of Israel. So we can see here that we’ve got this introduction and the introduction here was really short because here, they really wanna dig more into these recommendations. We’ve got 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. This is a lot of recommendation, guys, because here, they’re really, really focusing highly on the service.

So here’s what we’ve got here. “The chef behind Philadelphia’s modern Israeli restaurant, Zahav, was born near Tel Aviv and frequently returns to Israel for culinary inspiration. Recent trips helped shape the menus for his forthcoming Philadelphia restaurants: hummus spot Dizengoff and Abe Fisher, which will serve cuisine of the Jewish diaspora. Here, Michael shares highlights from his travels.”

So what do we see here? We’ve got one sentence that it’s a bit about who he is but it’s more about his connection to the place. We’ll hear about how his connection to the place informs his food because as we saw, this is the big criteria for “AFAR’s” piece, is that they don’t just want a celebrity and then to talk about something. They want to have a celebrity who’s a trusted advisor about this place.

So let’s see what he says, let’s see how they have it set up, and let’s see what is the difference here between quotes and not quotes? Which you’ll see just skimming along is that the vast majority of these, again, even though these are much longer, the vast majority here is gonna be quotes. So again, even though it’s a long piece, very little writing for you. So here’s a cooking class that he talks about.

“Erez Komarovsky is the first contemporary baker to introduce artisanal bread to Israel. He is known for his chain of eponymous bakeries and gives cooking workshops at his home in Mizpe Matat in the Galilee mountains. Classes combine Israeli and Lebanese recipes, since his home is near the Lebanese border. Erez bakes insanely good breads in a tabun or clay oven with ingredients from his organic gardens and olive groves. When I visited, he made a twist on a falafel sandwich stuffed with lamb.”

Now, holy cow, guys, does this, when I was reading it, did that sound like a quote to you? I don’t think. It sounded like something that was written by journalists. Why? Because they are, like I said, highly, highly, highly editing these interviews into what will make sense as elements of a roundup. So that one right there just sounded to me like it was written by a journalist, maybe with a bit less facts, but it’s pretty journalistic. Okay? Let’s look at the next one.

“Acre is a magical place. The historic port city was a strategic site during the Crusades. Uri Buri is a famous no-frills seafood restaurant where I ate raw crabs and sardines. The chef-owner, Uri Jeremias, also owns the 12-room Efendi Hotel. The hotel combines two old homes that were restored over the course of eight years with the help of Italian artisans. Order tapas in the hotel’s Byzantine-era wine cellar.”

Again here, it absolutely sounds like it was written by a writer rather than being pulled from him directly. The next one sounds more like he said it, and I have eaten at Uri Buri myself actually. So okay. The next one is Brown TLV Urban Hotel, “This is a really cute boutique hotel with a sick roof deck that has great views of the city skyline. There are just 30 rooms and the price is quite affordable. There isn’t a restaurant but guests can choose from one of three nearby cafes for breakfast.”

This is so much more spoken that it almost sounds to me like the person handed in this piece and then said, “We need more hotels,” and they pulled this out of their notes, if you ask me. The next one is the Bouza Market. “There is always a line out the door at Hummus Said, at the Old City Market in the northern city of Acre. The doors close when the hummus runs out.” Now, then they switch out for a second. “At Tarshiha Market, try the passion fruit sorbet at Bouza. This ice cream shop in Tarshiha sources ingredients from local farmers.”

We go on, Mamilla Hotel. “The Mamilla is the nicest hotel I’ve ever stayed in.” Very first person, very clearly from him. “The design is modern and beautiful and you can’t beat the location. You’re steps from the Old City and the Jaffa Gate and within walking distance of a lot of high-end shops.”

I’ll read you one more and then I’ll switch over so we can take a look at a couple other ones. So this one is a long one, and this one has more recommendations, but again, you can really see here that the recommendations and in particular the order of how these little minis are put together really sounds a lot like those guidebook writing sections that we talked about a couple weeks back.

“This restaurant is 15 minutes outside of Jerusalem in the Judean Hills and is run by chef Tomer Nir, who worked at the Fat Duck in the U.K. He is cooking really impressive food and goes foraging for ingredients like wild sumac. The restaurant serves brunch, lunch, and dinner. Expect to find dishes like leg of lamb roasted in a paprika marinade, or frika risotto with artichoke, gnocchi chips, black carrots, and oranges. No one is doing food like this in Jerusalem.”

Okay? Let’s look at a couple other ones here, so that’s the James Bond museum that I will look at to share with you in a later time. Here we’ve got “René Redzepi Takes Tokyo.” Let’s see what they do with the introduction here, this is a little bit longer.

“In January, René Redzepi, the chef behind the world’s best restaurant, at least according to this list, will shutter Noma and export his staff to Tokyo for a three-week-long pop-up in the Mandarin Oriental. Tickets for the dinner series are long gone, but we caught up with the foraging chef to get the full scoop as he scoured Japan for local veggies, handcrafted tableware, and the most unusual shellfish. We’re still on the fence about whether we want to meet this one.” They say it with a link. And I imagine that in the written piece, they would also have photos on the side of some of these things. So this one is actually done in a different tack. Sorry, I didn’t notice this before. But this one is actually an interview piece. Let me see if the next one is done more in their normal format.

Here we go. This one is more normal. So this one is “Chris Shepard in Puerto Rico.” “When Chris Shepherd of Houston’s Underbelly restaurant was named one of “Food & Wine Magazine’s” Best New Chefs in America this year, he didn’t realize that he would bond so strongly with his fellow award winners. Recently, the 2013 best new chefs had a reunion in Puerto Rico, hosted by Jose Enrique, chef of the eponymous San Juan restaurant. ‘Jose Enrique had an idea that we should all get together and host a party that showcased the best of our talents and the best of Puerto Rico,’ says Shepherd. ‘It was also an excuse to hang out in Puerto Rico for four days and it was a hell of a good time.’”

So here we’ve got who is this guy? And they say it in a way where the who is this guy leads into what they’re gonna tell you about. So they tell you that his restaurant and he were named one of the best chefs of “Food & Wine Magazine,” but then they go really quickly into how he got to Puerto Rico and why Puerto Rico. And then they go on.

“It was Shepherd’s first trip to Puerto Rico. ‘I went in with a very non-judgmental attitude and was completely impressed by these people who just live for food. It felt like going to a Hispanic country but without the hassle of going through customs or dealing with an exchange rate.’ Shepherd was grateful to have Enrique as his local guide. ‘I feel like I was getting sent to tourist spots in Old San Juan that wouldn’t offend or scare people. The instinct is to send you to either places that are so vanilla. But Jose took me to the places he and his family eat. We definitely got off the beaten path. I walked away from Puerto Rico wanting to go back.’” Here, he shares his most memorable meals.”

So this is a lot longer of an intro, and as you’ll see, there’s a lot more information here not just of how he connects to the place but also a bit of service information, okay? And then each of these sections about where he ate, also a bit longer, but the whole piece ends up being a similar length. We’ve just got longer sections. So I’ll read you and break down one more and then we’ll go over and talk about pitching.

“So, of course, Jose Enrique planned for us in Puerto Rico, the one place I looked forward to the most was eating at his restaurant, Jose Enrique. I’d met him twice before, once in New York for the Food & Wine Best New Chefs photo shoot and then again at the Food & Wine Classic in Aspen, o I knew he was a talented chef. But I wasn’t fully prepared for this dinner. Jose’s food showed us his Puerto Rico, and his talent is staggering. Jose’s blood sausage was one of my favorite dishes. He prepared it three ways: seared, stuffed inside a spring roll, and with Galician clams. But the standout dish of the night was the yellowtail snapper. The freshness and the way Jose butchered it made me want to cry. He butterfly cuts the snapper and cuts from the belly and takes the rib and spine out of the fish, then folds it over so that the back fin is still on. Then he dusts the fish in cornmeal and fries it, the technique was just great. This was his signature dish and it was awesome. We ate here on the first night and I wish I had gone back at the end of the trip to eat again for perspective. He explained all of the dishes to us and I understood the concept and knew they were delicious, but then to go on the streets, food stalls and return to Jose’s, I think you’d better appreciate what inspires his cooking.”

So here, again, you can see that this is all sourced, this whole big long thing I just read you is all one quote theoretically from this guy. But you’ll see here that you feel the voice a lot more in that other one, because in order to get 11 different places featured in there, they have to really, really edit down what they’re including from the person at each place. Here, he’s able to give us some context on visiting Puerto Rico, and how you should understand the piece. He also gives you some service here where he’s saying, “He wished he had eaten back there at the end, and he recommends that we go out and eat the street food and then eat at Jose Enrique later for perspective.”

All right. So let’s flip back over to the slides, and if you have any questions, we’re kind of getting into the wrap-up, so let me know in the chat box. But let me flip over now to the slides and we will talk about how you pitch the use pieces.

All right. So we’ve looked, the past couple weeks, at several different types of pieces that are all based on people, relatively famous people. People’s cooperation in your story. If you can’t get the person to cooperate with the story, you can’t get the piece. In some cases, you can maybe write a profile if it’s short without talking to the person. You definitely can’t write an interview piece without talking to the person. But you most 100% certainly cannot write a celebrity recommendations piece out of the air, you cannot write it without talking to the person.

So that makes it not only hard to pitch the piece because you’ve gotta get the permission first which is weird, because you don’t know if the editor is gonna approve it. But it also makes it hard to know what you’re pitching. So when you pitch, you’ve gotta really focus on that beginning part of the piece, what’s your time peg, and what’s the person’s connection to the topic at hand? Okay?

And as I mentioned early on in the call, these pitches are best as a tack on from something else. So you’ve gotta another piece, another reason you’re interviewing this person, and then you just ask them a few other questions at the end and say, “You know, I’m gonna see if I can get this also in blah, blah, blah place as a celebrity recommendation feature. Would you mind telling me, you know, four of your picks on your favorite street in the city where you live?” Something like that, okay?

Now, as I’ve shown here, the words that appear particularly in the more roundup section tend to be words that were said directly by the source. This is not stuff that you’re writing. And that’s one of the things that makes it hard because you can’t even tell them…you could say I’ll feature a restaurant, a hotel, a cafe, and a piece of nightlife, and then you can ask the source for each of those. But you really don’t know what they’re gonna be, right? So you can kind of notch it down in terms of what you ask the source.

But the thing is also that sometimes because these things are so easy to put together and you’re gonna use the words verbatim anyway, you can get in a position where you’re doing these interviews over email rather than live. And that can end up being nicer than you think in a way, because rather than interviewing somebody who is very kind of like on the leash in terms of what they say to the press or media transition like that, you can have them already vet through whoever it is that has to vet what they say, you can have that done before you get the quotes. So that once you have quotes, you’re able to just use them as you wish rather than having somebody say, “Well, we need to see those quotes, we need see what’s gonna appear before it goes out.”

Now, this is something we need to see it before it goes out, that you should never be showing any source the whole piece even if it’s just about them. But you can always…there’s never a problem. I’ve never heard anyone ever have any issues with this. Give them the quotes of what you’re gonna say that they said for approval. And in this case, if it’s not demanded, I would definitely recommend that you do it.

Now, I mentioned this in the last couple weeks and this bears repeating, which is that if you are pitching to an editor, someone that’s a real kind of well-known celebrity, and this is an editor that’s new to you, that you have not worked with before, you want to make sure that you explicitly say this person, this person’s team, whatever, has agreed to participate in the piece if it’s assigned. Do not assume that because you’re pitching the person, the editor will know that you have gotten permission from the source to do the piece, you need to come right out and say it.

So thank you guys so much for joining me, and have a great weekend.

Article Nuts and Bolts – Putting Together a Interview Piece Transcript

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We are gonna be talking about Putting Together an Interview Piece. Last week how many of you were with us? Let me know in the chatbox if you were with us or you caught the replay last week when we spoke about Putting Together a Profile Piece because this is gonna be in many ways building on what we talked about last week, but also different because well kind of superficially or if you’re not used to writing them, profiles and interviews seem kind of interchangeable.

You can often see, in fact I spent a lot of time in the database pulling some different sections from different magazines for us to look at. You can often see that in magazines they also seem a bit interchangeable, like this feature could be a Q&A or it could be a profile, but profiles as we looked at last week, are quite difficult to write. They structurally are very nuanced. They borrow not exactly from narrative, they borrow more in many ways from scene in a way like you would see in a narrative that is more of a screenplay type narrative or television show. There’s a lot of different scenes so they’re quite difficult things to write, but people can get very enthusiastic about them because you meet lots of people as you travel who are doing fantastic things or who are themselves fantastic or have really great backstories and there’s tons and tons and tons and tons. I saw so many letters in the database, so many profile sections out there, but they’re a bit hard to write. Interview pieces on the other hand are an absolute breeze to write.

So that being said, let’s go ahead and dive in. What we’re gonna look at specifically this week is I mentioned I had spent a bunch of time pulling different sections from all sorts of different magazines that are interview pieces for you. So we’re gonna look at a lot of different interview pieces from different magazines, but they fall into certain buckets. And beyond that, the reason that I’ve pulled these for you is that there is something about interview piece… the thing about interviews is that they are very different than other articles because you’re not really writing them exactly. You are crafting them out of some text that was exchanged, but they have a lot less of the structure, repeatable structure, journalistic structure that we’ve looked at in the series on Article Nuts and Bolts so far.

We started, those of you that remember, we started with news briefs and we talked about the news inverted pyramid structure and we talked about how to very quickly and easily put together a short piece which you can sell tons and tons of tons of two big magazines for a dollar a word. And the thing about these Q&As; is that none of those structural things really apply. You could say that in many ways Q&As; are devoid of structure in a way that essays also can be but differently, which you could think makes it harder to keep a reader interest in a Q&A. But that’s where the questions come into effect.

So we’ve done some content in the past on interviews and you’ll see that some of the interview article sections that recur in different magazines that we’re gonna look at. You as the writer really have a lot of options in terms of what questions you’re gonna ask. And some of them you just don’t. So we’re gonna look at that divide and where it exists so that you can be aware of it. But I want you to know if you feel great about talking to people and you feel like theoretically, you should be able to do these interview things because you don’t have to write much and it seems easy, but you’re just a bit nervous about the interview part, I want to let you know that we also have a collection on how to do interviews where we look not just at what makes a great interview or how to get in touch with sources and get them to agree to your interview, but also I do interviews live with people from two convention visitor bureaus on one of the calls. And then I also show you how I cut that up into making an article.

So like I said, we’re gonna talk about what makes profiles different that you can’t ignore in your pitch and how that comes a lot down to this structure or lack of structure question. Then we’re gonna talk about the different kinds. I’ve put in air quotes there of interviews because these are very loose buckets, but they’re really helpful for thinking about how you generate article pitch ideas, okay? So then we’re gonna pull over. I’ve pulled up a few different ones for you, one that we can look at in a little more depth and then I’ve also pulled up three different interviews for you from the same magazine so you can see how they can vary in a magazine setting where the questions are able to be quite different. So I’ve pulled up one interview for you that’s a little bit more, you could call it like pedestrian in terms of how the questions are set up and one where the questions are a bit more interesting. So you can see how those vary even within one magazine and then we’re gonna talk about how to pitch these.

So I wanna know first and foremost when I say that an article is really rubricked, what that makes you guys think of, what that means to you because it was interesting. I was looking up this word earlier to see kind of if there was a clinical definition that would be worth sharing with you guys and I was really intrigued that it appears in the Oxford English dictionary but it doesn’t appear so much in some other ones. So it might be a bit of a British word that I have picked up that I use.

But the idea with something being really rubricked and in particular the idea that I think that not everyone is necessarily thinking about so much when they put together their pitch. You tend to think about it once you have an article assignment that you’re working on. But I definitely see people think about it less when they’re at that pitching stage is a definition that I found that I really like, which is around, this is from the Oxford English dictionary and it’s around the concept of rules. So it says that a rubric is a set of instructions or rules. Now something that I’ve seen come up, I’ve been having a lot of new coaching calls with people who have just joined the program recently, so I’ve been seeing a lot of folks recently who have just been pitching on their own in the wild. In the wild as in, you know, out in a non-institutional setting and how they go about conceiving articles’ ideas.

And one of the really big things that’s a paradigm shift when you get really into this rabbit hole of how to become a rock star person that gets a 95% response rate is to follow the rules. And when you are writing articles, you can pitch so many different ideas. You can get assigned all these great things to learn about. There’s so much you can do. It’s entirely under your own steam. But on the other side of the desk, as they say on the other side where the editor sits, there are rules that the editor has to follow. There’s rules she has to follow about what is the style of her publication. There’s rules she to follow about length. There’s rules she has to follow about who specifically they are allowed or not allowed to feature, about what destinations they are or are not allowed to feature.

And if you have not spent a lot of time in contact with an editor like you don’t have or haven’t had a publication that you write for regularly, it’s easy to not have brushed up against these. But once you start working really closely with an editor, then you get to hear all these little things like, ”Oh no, we don’t cover that hotel because our publisher da da da da…” Or ”Oh yeah, we really aren’t looking for any more articles about the U.S. because we are a Canadian publication and we wanna cover the world and Canada. But we can’t just write about America all the time. So we really are not interested in those ideas anymore.”

So unless you talk to an editor, it’s easy to not run into these roles. And when I’m out talking to people and going to conferences and things like this, I listen for these because these are the things that I always see are really aha moments for writers. So this concept of an article being rubricked is like an extreme way of saying there is no latitude and it has to follow very specific rules to the letter and you cannot do anything past that. So some folks have said in the chatbox that it checks off all the items on a list of guidelines, that it follows a protocol or that it follows set parameters. And actually I challenge you to think that all of those definitions that you guys gave, they actually apply to all articles for a magazine, but you just don’t necessarily know all the rules yet.

Now when a section is highly rubricked, what that means is more that you have very little choice about what’s going to go into the article in a way. You have choice in terms of, you know, if it’s a what to see, what to eat, where to sleep, obviously you get to choose what hotels, right. But if they typically wanna see one expensive, one budget and one boutique, then you have less choice than you thought. Or if they also want preferably for the price ranges to be, you know, this one’s about 200% more than that one and then the mama bear one’s about 150% in the middle, these are things that you might not know, but that are kind of known internally and probably not put on the page for the freelance writer because they expect that you will look at the past articles and figure that out. Now is this a reasonable expectation? In theory, yeah, but they’re not telling you to make sure to look for those things and you might not understand that that is important to them.

So when articles are really heavily rubricked, what it means is it’s kind of like a follow or else. So you’ll see with the interview pieces that we’re gonna look at that there are some that are like this and there are some that are not. So what I mean by that is I mentioned that there’s two different types of articles, full articles that we’re gonna look at later and one is a bit more pedestrian and the other ones have more kind of latitude in the questions. So you’ll see a little bit of that when we get to the examples. But you’re also gonna see when I start showing you the different sections in different magazines.

But I wanted to tell you first why am I gonna show you about 18, 17 different magazine sections that are all interviews and this is why. Because you can meet somebody and think they’re great and think you should pitch them and kind of feel like, ”Oh, I really wanna profile this person in their place and their backstory and all these things.” And there might be so many great things going on about them that they really need to be in lots of different articles for lots of different audiences to do all of the great things that you want to write about justice because if you just put them in one article and especially in one pitch for one editor, what’s gonna happen is it’s not gonna be clear what the takeaway for the reader is. I remember somebody saying once that she had a music background specifically in songwriting and that that was incredibly helpful to her because when it comes to articles and especially pitches she said, ”With a song, we only have one idea. You don’t have that many words really. You might have like 100 or 150 words that kind of repeat over and over again, so you have to be really stuck on this one idea that you want to get across.” And that’s the same with article ideas.

Now we think about that. I talk about it and everything, but we don’t necessarily think about it in something like an interview or a profile. Last week when we talked about profiles, we talked about how to encapsulate something big in a small space by being selective with what we choose to display, but right now what I’m challenging you to think is that you can take somebody big who has lots of different facets and polish them all kind of individually for different magazines.

So what you’ll see as we go into looking at the specific opportunities in different magazines, the specific sections is that there are a lot of ones that are perhaps, I’ll show you the three different categories, there are a lot of ones that are perhaps overlapping. So you might see, for instance, something when we talk about celebrity interviews, where that person would also work for a section you’re going to see when we look at “average Joe” sections or something that you saw in an indie magazine. So let me explain what these three main types are. So the “average Joe” and I can’t do it without doing air quotes. So that’s why I said heavy on the air quotes here. The ”average Joe” interview piece means someone who’s not Sandra Bullock or George Clooney or Amal Clooney, you know, or Angelina Jolie or whoever. The ”average Joe” piece means this is not somebody who’s like an international household name, but they can be your next door neighbor, but they aren’t always.

So in some cases this ”average Joe” is gonna be a person who in their neighborhood or at their coffee shop might be a totally normal person, but in their field they’re actually very famous or maybe they’re not exactly famous and we can argue over what famous means and how famous is subjective. Maybe they’re not exactly super famous, but they’ve just done something recently that’s worth writing home about as they say. Perhaps they’ve written a book about something very unique. Perhaps they have accomplished something unusual or perhaps they’ve just started a new initiative. I was talking about the ”average Joe” here, so this could be your neighbor who’s done something that in their field is really important. Perhaps they’re scientists.

And I have a friend who’s just a totally normal friend of ours, a friend of my husband’s from growing up and he’s a professor in MIT, but there’s lots of professors in MIT, so that in itself isn’t necessarily anything, and a few years ago he discovered, I’m not exactly sure how you can discover this, but he did a really landmark paper on how you can use tree bark to filter out 99.9% of the things in water that make it unsafe to drink when you’re out in the wild. So this is basically the same success rate that you’re gonna do with most of the things on the market that people pay a ton for when they go camping and backpacking and different things like that. And he ran some experiments around this. I’m not exactly sure what he did, but it’s one of those things that’s so basic and so cool, you could write about this anywhere. And this is just a guy that I know that my husband went to school with. So there’s a lot of these kind of ”average Joe” folks that you no doubt know from your life that have something interesting that you can be profiling them about or interviewing them about.

So I mentioned earlier, profiles and interviews are kind of two sides of the same coin. The real difference only is which ones are available in which magazines and what kind of piece do you wanna write. So if you are writing a profile, like I said, it can be a lovely piece of art. These can be really great clips. I know a lot of people who love writing profile, but for some folks you’re not ready for that. You’re just getting into interviews. I was chatting with somebody the other day who’s really nervous about doing interviews and this can be a really great way to do it where you are just doing one step at a time where you’re gonna do the interview, you’re gonna cut it up for a nice Q&A piece, but you don’t have to worry about also doing this beautiful story structure on top of it to do it justice.

So the next piece, obviously is celebrity interviews. When I talk about interviews, I think a lot of people think about the interview pieces in magazines as being specifically celebrity interviews. And the ones that I’ve pulled out to show you, I’ve pulled a really interesting selection in terms of not just showing you different ways that celebrities can be treated as in their person, but the question specifically in their interviews and magazines that you might not be thinking about that you could take these things to. There’s one in particular that I hope will get a little chuckle or a little something out of you guys. And the last one that I have and I have it out here separated as a third category because it’s different and I’ve also pulled some full articles of this type to show you so that you can see how.

So the indie magazine interview feature is something where it’s still gonna be a Q&A, but it’s going to be deeper. Let’s just say. So you’ll see what I mean when we look at the different sections as they appear in different magazines. But also when we look at the full ones, so I’ll leave that deeper, kind of a bit vague so that you can see for yourself and we can chat more about it later. So let’s get into these. So first for you, I’ve got some ”average Joe” and again, ish, ”average Joe” in air quotes interview sections. So let’s look here. And again, like I said, I’ve got about 17 of these so I’m gonna take maybe like 30, 40 seconds per one. So if you have questions about these individually, they’re all in the travel magazine database so I’m not gonna be able to stop and take questions about each one because then we’ll get too behind in the slides. And don’t forget that there’s also a delay. So I’ll probably already have moved on to the next slide by the time that you have a question about one.

Okay. So the first one I’ve gotten here is a publication called Mindful. Now again, remember this is in the ”average Joe”ish’ section. This is a publication that focuses on mindfulness and meditation, working that into your everyday life and they have a section that occurs every issue. It’s called “Walk the Talk.” Now it’s a Q&A that’s got a short third person introduction covering who the person is, what they did, what they do and about six questions which cover their career, how they got into mindfulness and meditation, how it helps them or other people and any future plans.

Now you’ll notice that there’s about six questions here and we’ve already seen four topics, so that’s, you know, most of the questions there. And something that I wanna point out here because I’m not necessarily gonna reread it for you each time we see an article is that there’s a very recurring structural element that you’ll see in these pieces, which is that there’s often an introduction which is usually maximum 300 words. It’s written in third person about the person and what they do and then it goes into the Q&A. So that’s something that you’re gonna see recur. So let’s look at some examples.

So they’ve profiled someone who is a meditation instructor and nightclub doorman, cool twist, someone who’s a mindfulness instructor and a law professor, someone who’s a psychotherapist and social worker and how she uses mindfulness to help people open up. So what you can see here is that they’ve essentially for this walk the walk, not just chosen to profile people who are in the meditation industry, but also to show instances that have a cool counterpoint between mindfulness and something else. So that’s what they’re looking for here.

And this is the kind of thing, and you’ll see this as we go through these different examples where you can just kind of keep your ear pricked for this sort of thing. You can also kind of put it out there in your friends and family circle because that’s the best way to find these people honestly, is those loose connections between people that you already know very well who are really happy to introduce you over to some of these people to profile. So this one you’d be looking for people who care about mindfulness and do something with it. Like there’s some sort of mindfulness instructor, a meditation instructor or something like that, but then they also have another profession that’s quite different.

So here’s another one, Men’s Journal. Big magazine, good pay, newsstand, lots of opportunities in there. Also write about travel. They’ve got a really neat ”average Joe” Profile section which is in the notebook, which is their large kind of mete front of book section, so they do about 500 to a thousand word long articles which have third person and then the Q&A as usual and you’ll see here that they profile people that you wouldn’t necessarily think about as the men’s journal profilee and that’s because men’s journal is always gonna have a picture of a celebrity on the cover and they’re gonna have a full profile on that person that’s written in third person.

That’s gonna be one of their features. But this is something else that they have in front of book and again, it’s going to pay probably a dollar a word if not more. So in this case, they’re looking for people like they have a location scout for films talking about defining moments in his career. Someone who’s a writer talking about his new story collection and life in Montana. These are very easy people to come across through networks that you’re already in, that your significant other is in, that your best friend is in, things like this.

So next we’ve got…whoops, I’m missing this. So this is Blue Mountain Life and the focus. This is actually on the Blue Mountains in Australia. Okay. So they have a section called people that is 1000 to 1200 words and they frequently can be written either as a profile or as a third person Q&A. So when they’re written as a third person Q&A, again, they’re gonna look at their childhood career, future plans and thoughts about the Blue Mountain area. This is that rubric. You have to include questions that touch on these things. It’s very easy to have a really cool interview and hear the person talk about all sorts of stuff that they’re doing, that sounds great, that you wanna include and then turn that piece in to the editor and then have it be a big gong like, you know, when a gong hits..with the editor because you didn’t follow the rubric of the content that they need to have that their readers expect to have in here every time.

So we saw this with the Mindfulness one as well. So what are some examples? So they have somebody who’s a country music singer that talks about her childhood, how she got started, what she thinks of her hometown. There’s someone who’s…there’s a retired couple who has created art representing the area they live and covering their previous careers. There’s somebody who has experience teaching and volunteering in Nepal on a school trip from the same Bathurst area talking about the country where she was and her volunteering work there with her school.

So the next one here, this is from an airline magazine and there’s a lot of these airline magazines and I’ve picked a couple of different ones to make sure that we didn’t have too many different magazines that are too similar. So I’m trying to give you a wide breadth here. So this is from Sawasdee, which is the custom magazine for Thai Airways. So their spotlight has again third person introduction. It’s about 700 words long. You’re sensing a theme here and they cover their career, connection with Thailand and any personal anecdotes from their work or personal life. So that’s actually a bit broader than some of these other ones, right? So they’ve got somebody who is a designer talking about her latest collection and identity as Thai. There’s somebody who’s a model talking about making it to the final six in the Miss Universe competition. Somebody who is a photo journalist and holding an exhibit in Bangkok but isn’t necessarily Thai. So this one is gonna be one of those examples like we’re gonna look at later when we look at the full articles where you can go different directions based on the person and what they do, but that’s not always gonna be the case.

So this one, Hobo, this is actually, I have two from Hobo in here, and Hobo’s technically an independent magazine, but I put one here in this ”average Joe” section and one in the celebrity section because they have very different types of Q&As; and so I wanted to show that to you. So here they have a focus on the person’s career, but also some questions including their personal life, inspirations, opinions on humorous topics. We’re actually gonna look at some of these together and you’re gonna see how the questions change very, very much from person to person. But I wanted to show you, this is the counterpoint to cover which is their more celebrity focused one. So the people that they’ve interviewed here are someone who is a biologist and a photographer, a writer and a poet and a screenwriter, okay? So these are more of the type of people that you could just come across.

This one also is an independent magazine, but they have a very mainstream magazine type interview section called Three Questions, so it’s only about 400 words and they have the short third person intro and then they talked about what the person does and a bit about their backstory and it just has three questions. So the questions can cover their career, a big change in their life or their thoughts on a particular topic. So they’ve got somebody who left a career in publishing for gardening, talking about how to find calm in the city and the courage to change careers.

They’ve got an artist talking about what inspires her and her recent exhibition in New York. So you might also notice that a lot of these people may have done something that you can hear about through the grapevine, but they may have done something that would be, let’s call it moderately newsworthy. So these are also good places to stick those people that you might get press releases about. Or you can also just cruise PR Web. And I’ll put this in the chatbox. PR Web for press releases and also travel media. You can cruise those for press releases and find people who can work for these profile sections as well. If you feel like you don’t know people or you don’t have a network.

Now I talked a little bit about this before, so I don’t wanna labor about it too long, but what does celebrity really mean? I’ve tried to break it out to people who are specifically famous in their field. I’ve kept those apart. This is meant to be more for people who are quite quite, whether their film stars or perhaps like really top athletes or something like that might. But you’ll see that celebrity can be a little different for every arena. So this is Hemispheres. It’s the publication for United Airlines and they have a section every issue called The Hemi Q&A, and this is usually like one page. It’s got a photo of the person and then the question is around the side and again it’s got an introduction of about 200 words which covers what the celebrity is known best for in the third person. Then they have a structured Q&A that focuses on the career, but especially on new projects. But look at how long this is 2000 to 2,500 words. That’s an awesome paycheck to get from Hemispheres, which pays a dollar a word. Okay, so I’ve got one of these pulled up and we’re going to look at later what they mean by structured Q&A here.

Family Traveller, there’s two Family Traveler magazines. There’s a new one from the same people that came out of the U.S. recently and about I think last fall that has one L, so if you see two L’s, in this case it means it’s the UK version. So they’ve got one where it’s not someone who is famous in Family Travel. It’s someone who is famous and they talked to them about family travel, so it’s called celebrity Q&A. It’s about 1000 words long, but they asked them about the celebrities’ past travel with their family or their own childhood trips, their future holiday plans and any trips for traveling with kids. So here we are looking at the celebrity from a very specific lens, which is the lens of what the magazine focuses on and you’ll see they’ve got folks here like makeup artist, Bobbi Brown, actress Emilia Fox. So I’m so sorry I left the focus off this one as well.

High Times if you don’t know what it’s focused on, and this is a marijuana-oriented magazine and the one that always catches my eye when I go through the database is they’ve got an issue with Obama holding a big bong on the cover, and I’m really not sure if that’s photoshopped or not. So High Times is a marijuana focus magazine, which is less marijuana business. There’s quite a few that are marijuana business focus these days, but this one is more marijuana for consumers and they have a section called The High Times Interview that is a profile of a famous person that incorporates the person’s career, personal life and thoughts on cannabis, the cannabis industry and their personal experiences with the drug. So like we saw with Family Traveller, this is something where they’re gonna take somebody famous, they’ll touch on why they’re famous, but then they’re also gonna look at that person through the lens of the magazine. So here they’ve got a rapper, they’ve got comedian, they’ve got author Lee Child who my husband really likes. I’m going to have to tell him to read this article.

So another one here, we’ve got TrueJet. This is another airline magazine, but I wanted to show you this one because this one has a slightly different take on what famous means. So TrueJet is a regional more low cost carrier that flies I think just within India or maybe just regionally and they have a section called “Face2Face” which is again on the longer side, 800 to 1500 word interview with a prominent Indian from actors to artists to politicians. And this is one of those things that it can be a profile third person version or it could be a Q&A and they cover people like Shashi Tharoor, if you don’t know him, he’s as a very, very big author. So here they’re covering people who are really, really well-known but have that importance to the audience, which is that they are really an India specific carrier.

Now I want to show you this one because this is another example of an airline magazine and how they might take somebody who’s very famous, but then there are gonna narrow it even for the airline magazine. This isn’t gonna be your run of the mill kind of celebrity. What they’re doing these days, new projects profile. It’s about trips. So this is called “Tripping With” and it’s a celebrity Q&A in 800 words where it covers topics like their favorite locations, childhood holidays, and their favorite style of travel. Now this is different than the celebrity recommendations piece that we’re gonna look at next week because this is more an interview of the person’s thoughts as it comes to travel and they do folks from all over. You can see that they have done a piece on Jamie Oliver.

Now this is that other one that I promised we were gonna get to, which is the second one from Hobo, which is called “Cover.” And this is that more general one where they’ve got a profile of a celebrity, an actor, artist, photographer, musician, and it’s about 2000 words. It talks about what they’re known for in the third person and then goes into a Q&A. Now here’s one where it’s really long. It’s in a relatively independent magazine, but it’s pretty rubricked and it’s a very famous celebrity type person talking about their life in an independent magazine. So this is really different than what we’re gonna see in some of the independent magazines, but it does come up. There’s a lot of really beautiful independent magazines like Cherry Bombe and Gentlewoman and this one Hobo where they do..Travel Almanac is another one where they’re able to get those really big celebrities like Willem Dafoe I saw on the cover of Travel Almanac on there and to do these interviews for that magazine. And that can also be another tip off for you as you’re looking for independent magazines that like wow, if they can get this person to be there with the magazine then this means that they have a legit operation going on. So in this case they have 12 questions that they ask, they focus on the person’s career and briefly touch on their personal life.

So like I said, this is the more traditional celebrity-oriented one but in an unusual setting. So this was the last one that I wanted to show you. This is about the kind of people who are famous in their arena. So this is Cross Country which is a magazine on free flying sports around the world. If you ask me a free flying sports, I can’t quite tell you, but it’s kind of things I think like hang gliding and kind of different stuff like that. So they’ve got a Q&A. Again, 700 words. We keep seeing that magical number where they ask about eight questions focused on the person in relation to that sport and this is gonna focus on people who are famous within that sport but who’ve done really big things. So like they do have one here where it’s somebody who just entered their first competition, but they’ve also got people talking about placing in the paragliding competition for what is it paragliding…the Red Bull paragliding. And they’ve also got the Paragliding World Championships.

So this is the kind of thing where you can also be looking up, you know, say you find a magazine, say that’s a topic you’re interested in, like rock climbing for instance, someone I coach is a big climber, which I used to be as well. And you can say, ”Hey, I wanna write for this magazine. Oh, this is a great excuse for me to interview people who are big in this field and some other cool article ideas as I’m writing up this interview, which I’m uniquely qualified for because I have a background in this field.”

So let’s look quickly at how these indie magazine interview features are different. Like I told you, so independent magazines that we often call indie magazines tend to have a really unrubricked magazine in general. They don’t really have a table of contents. They don’t often have sections that repeat every single month. Some of them are primarily repeatable sections and some just have none. So you’re gonna see a lot of independent magazines where we say there’s 45 features per issue and they can be this or they can be that or they can be this other thing. And this is one of those examples.

So this one’s called Upstate Diary and it focuses on artists and creatives who work close to nature. And there’s about 10 features that take the form of profiles of artists or creative people that can also appear as a Q&A. And again they’re pretty long and the ones in the independent magazines tend to be. So this is a 1000 to 2000 words. So we’ve got that same short third person introduction and then structured questions. So this is gonna cover the person’s career, childhood and personal life with a focus on their art and inspirations and usually as well talking about how nature works into it, asking them about their location, if they live in a rural location or how they draw inspiration from nature.

So here you’ll see they do have some quite famous people like fashion designer Zac Possen and his new cookbook. They’ve got retired diplomat, they’ve got a clay artist as well, a ceramicist. So this is the kind of thing where they’re a little bit people who you might find through your network. They’re a little bit people that you might see giving a talk in the community or something like that and ask if you can interview them afterwards. But the people for the independent magazines tend to be, I would call them slightly famous or famous in their space to a degree that they have some fans.

So here’s another one. So this magazine is called Bedboat. They have a section called “Humans” that’s got five articles and they usually appear as Q&As;. So this one’s a bit shorter. They can be shorter. They can be longer 500 to 1500 words and again, they talk about the person’s career and personal life and include entertaining and thought-provoking anecdotes. So this is that kind of vanilla, you could almost say interview because it’s really open in terms of what it can cover, which gives you the person doing the piece, freedom from that rubric where you can really just talk about what is interesting about the person, okay? So here they’ve got people who are buskers, which means they perform outside on the street. They’ve got people who…oh yeah, this one is a neat one. Someone who started the Victory Gardens, which is an initiative in Vancouver that encourages community gardening and I really like this one, a hairdresser who gives free haircuts to the homeless in the UK.

So another one here we’ve got Honore, this one’s a little bit more on the fashion side of creative. They’ve got five features and sometimes their Q&A, so they are also long because they’re in the feature section, so they’re gonna be thousand to 1,000 to 2,500 words and they’ve got people like a photographer who took a portrait of herself everyday for a year for five years. They’ve got a Paris opera director, they’ve got an artist who’s got an exhibition. So like I said, a lot of these ones are people that you can either find out about through, you know, press releases that are going around or just things that you hear. And when you go to events it’s really easy to see something is going on and to say, ”Hey, would you mind if I pitched a story, an interview story about you to some magazines?” and get their permission for that. ‘We’ll talk more about how to pitch these later.

So here’s another one Got a Girl Crush and this focuses on profiles of inspirational women. They’ve got about 10 of these feature articles per issue. Some of them are gonna be Q&As;. And again, these are 500 to 1500 words. So it’s that range where it depends how much juice you kind of get out of there. So they’ve got the mayor of Barcelona, they’ve got so much text in here, I can’t quite find. Okay. Chelsea VonChaz is the founder of # Happy Period, which distributes hygiene kits to homeless women. So these are women who kind of can be big figures like the mayor of Barcelona, but they also can run movements. So this might be something that you’re on social media and you see something’s happening and you reach out to the person who’s starting it and ask if you can profile them as well.

So I think this is the last one in here. This one’s called Huck and this is a magazine that’s also super independent, but more on the youth kind of activism side. So there are Q&As; range from 5 to 1000 words on the shorter side and the introduction, again, quite short from 50 to 200 words. And they talk to people like antiestablishment politicians. They’ve got a lot of those in Italy right now and Syrian rappers. They featured somebody who’s an American author who talks about how the internet is driving people insane. And they asked him 13 different questions about his take on the digital age, delving into everything from the troubles of social media and smartphone addicts to podcasts, the democratization of the arts.

So what do all of these different things that we’ve looked at share. They tend, as you’ve noticed, to be dramatically on the longer side, a lot of stuff at 1,000 words, 2000 words, 2500 words, and a lot of people say these days you just can’t get word counts like that from editors. But they’re a lot happier to give them for these Q&A pieces than they are for a lot of features. At the same time, you are seeing a lot of things in there like I said, that 700 number that we see recurring again and again and again, but that’s not shabby especially when it’s a magazine that’s paying you a dollar a word and these Q&A pieces are very easy and fast to write up. And you’ll also see, like I said, that they’re almost always, always preceded by that concise intro which can sometimes be 300 words, so sometimes it’s almost a small article in itself where you’re really tactfully almost like a small profile presenting that person in all of their multifaceted greatness before you lead into that Q&A with them.

So what do you see that’s different in these different articles? The indies are much less likely to be rubricked and they cover people from a lot of different disciplines in one magazine, which is not necessarily gonna always be the case. So for instance, like with the Hemi IQ, you’ll see they have a lot of actors and people related to film there. A lot of the other ones that are really kind of ”famous celebrities” are going to be a little bit more limited in what fields they pull from. Whereas when you get into the indies, you see that they have in one magazine, they’ve got a profile of a photographer next to an activist next to like a street musician, right. So, while the front of the profiles tend to be shorter, they also tend to be laser focused. Either they’re very heavily rubricked like that Tripping With that we saw in Qantas where they’re really straight around the person’s travel or they might be really focused on what that person is doing now. For instance, what’s new in their career.

Okay. So let’s pop over and I’m gonna show you a couple different examples of these. As I mentioned, I’ve got three other ones that are all from the same outlet. These are all from Hobo because I wanna show you how in those less rubric settings, how the question’s really change a lot from interviewee to interviewee.

So here we’ve got John Lithgow in Hemispheres for the Hemi IQ. So here’s the intro. I just wanna read you the intro so we can see how this mini profile that I discussed played out and in case you want to get ahead on opening tabs, these are the tabs for the other one from Hobo that we will look at as well. And I’ve pulled these ones because not every magazine has full text of articles online where you can read it online without having to go into one of those digital versions. So one of the reasons also I chose these was so I could give you guys the direct links as well.

So let’s look at the intro here with John Lithgow. John Lithgow doesn’t hesitate to call himself a character actor. Given his diverse and unpredictable resume, it’s not hard to see why. In the past year, the 17 year old stage and screen veteran has played a lovable murder suspect in the NBC sitcom Trial and Error, a ruthless real estate mogul in the Sundance hit Beatriz at Dinner and Winston Churchill, which was fantastic, if any of you guys have seen that, in Netflix’s The Crown, a rule for which he won an Emmy. He’s also popped up in two franchise sequels ”Pitch Perfect 3” and ”Daddy’s Home 2.” ”I don’t know what happened” he says via home from his New York apartment where he confesses to still being in his bathrobe. “It turns out growing old is a huge asset for a character actor. It must be that I have a lot less competition.” So this is one quote that they’ve included in this kind of third person profile bit here.

But like we saw last week when we were looking at these profile pieces, those quotes add so much in a profile piece in terms of showing you the personality of the person. So here they’ve added a little description there where he confesses to still being in his bathrobe, but they also have this line, ”It must be that I have a lot less competition,” which is quite sanguine and shows you kind of his sense of humor, the profile or the intro goes on.

But this winter, the multihyphenate star, he’s also an amateur painter, Grammy nominated children’s musician and picture book author is devoting his attention to most intimate project yet with the Broadway debut of John Lithgow: Stories by Heart, an updated incarnation of the one man show he toured with in 2008. This production allows Lithgow to pay homage to his late father, a pioneer in regional theater by conjuring characters from some of the classic stories his dad read to him as a child, including P.G Wodehouse’s ”Uncle Fred Flits By” and Ring Lardner’s ”Haircut.” It promises to be a touching hilarious evening with, he says possibly a memorable mishap or two.

So what does this set up for us? Very similarly to the profile that we looked at last week, this sets up for us not the entire background of this actor. It doesn’t even mention the TV show that he, I think became quite a bit famous for starring in that might’ve been his break, if you were to call it that. It positions you around how the person writing this piece, how the person doing this interview wants you to see him, it positions him around what he’s doing now and what he’s doing next and what the interviewee is going to ask him about. So this is how you focus that intro. It’s not, you know, this person was born in Kalamazoo, they later came to New York for school, dropped out to become an actor or da, da, da. We’re not looking at that because it’s not relevant to what is at hand.

So what is at hand in this interview here? So the interviewee begins and you’ll see that these aren’t, what are you working on right now? What is your best memory? These questions here are not quite so specific in that vein. Some, especially the shorter, like those 700 word ones, some of those will have questions that are quite short and quite repetitive. In this case, they’re going to be kind of going with the flow a little bit more, but you’ll see that the topics move through some very specific areas. So he gives a little context the interviewer here.

We’re speaking just a week after New York repealed it’s 91 year old cabaret law, restricting dancing. What would your fire and brimstone preacher from 1984’s Footloose say? He says, ”I don’t even know that news. Well, it would never have happened if I had been there.” So this first question, we’re bringing in a little background. We’re showing that he’s got Broadway history, right? And this 1984 reference kind of sets the tone of how long he’s been on Broadway and we get a little bit of flavor as they call it from John Lithgow here as well. Then the interviewer goes on to say, “You previously toured Stories by Heart” dropping some more kind of bread crumbs of his history here. “What prompted you to revisit the show and what’s different about the Broadway production?” So now we start to get into the nitty gritty of why he does the work that he does specifically on Broadway. So I’m not gonna read all of this to you verbatim, but I wanna kind of go through the questions especially.

So you’ll see that the questions don’t always link together. In interview pieces, they’re very frequently separate sections that are strung together in the way that makes the most sense for the reader by the interviewer after the interview. This is not gonna be necessarily the order in which these things happen. So you’ll see he talks about being on tour, Greensboro, blah, blah, blah, performing on Broadway. If you go to Kansas City, see the Arabia Steamboat Museum.Then we have a complete change of tack. ”Your father devoted his life to theater, but it was never a steady gig for him and as a result your family moved around a lot. What sort of emotions did it bring up for the two of you when you met with such success where he had struggled?” So now it’s like this father question, which seems to be out of nowhere. In the conversation they had, it may have made a lot more sense. It may not have, but it probably did.

So what’s happening here is that we’ve got questions that are establishing background. We’ve got questions that are establishing his professional background, questions that are establishing his personal background. Then what? “Have any of your three children wanted to follow in your footsteps and if so, what did you tell them?” So we talked about how this worked for him with his father and then we move into how it’s working with his kids. Then, “Pretty early in your career you played trans woman Roberta Muldoon in 1982’s The World according to Garp. It’s a lovely empathetic portrayal. And what’s more Roberta’s identity is presented as fairly uncomplicated even though it long predates the progress we’re seeing now.’ Did that part give you pause?” So is this related to his kids or his father or touring? No, totally separate, but this is something that they’re using to construct how he feels about the parts that he takes as we get into talking about what he has coming up.

So we’ve got, ”Did you hear from any fans about any one role in particular?” So again, we’re talking about what is a John Lithgow role. He talks about, do you know the five stages of an actor’s life? Let me tell you, the first stage is who is John Lithgow? The second stage is get me John Lithgow, the third stage is just get me a John Lithgow type. Then comes give me a young John Lithgow and the last again is who is John Lithgow? So we’re moving here through his background. What kind of roles he takes, why he takes them. Are you ever curious about what makes you appealing for certain roles? Then into what he’s doing now? You’ve won multiple Tony and Emmy’s. Why do movies like this? What was your preparation for playing Churchill? They talk about more about Churchill. They talk about a scene and something that he said and they’re moving now into his personal philosophy. How does that philosophy apply to your 2001 memoir, Drama: An Actor’s Education. And then he says, ”You have an amazing personal history. You’re distantly related to Oliver Wendell Holmes. You once met your childhood idol, Norman Rockwell. Coretta Scott King babysat you and your siblings.” Not exactly a question here, but you see here that we’re moving into the wrap up. This is kind of a signaling. Okay? And then we’ve got the last question here, which is, ”What’s the biggest change you’ve witnessed over the course of your career?”

So there was an arc here, right? We had some sort of background grounding in him and then we moved into why he does the work that he does and how he does it and then where he’s going. His thoughts. This is a big thing in these interviews is to kind of get someone’s philosophy on a thing. All right, so I’m gonna come over now and look at these three that are from Hobo and I wanted to show you these, like I said, less so to dig in like we did with that John Lithgow one and more so to show you how the questions can really change when you have a lot of latitude because these are also written by different people. So we’ve got this as by Val Litwin, this one here is by Christopher Dogimont or Christian rather Dogimont . And then we’ve got Julia Kidder, so three different interviewees and three different interviewers, okay?

So this guy starts, for those of you who haven’t encountered the work of Gary Snyder, ”I’m Jealous” you have a universe of deep and urgent thoughts still to discover. Okay? So then we get into the questions and this one you’ll see is very, very, very verbatim. Okay? So he starts with, ”Hi, this is Val. Calling from Whistler. How are you this morning?” So this is not something you’re gonna see in most of these interviews in life, okay? So when I say that this one is a good counterpoint to the last one we saw it’s because you’re really seeing how this interview took place. So again, in the links that I sent you, this is the one with Gary Snyder.

So let’s go and move through. So we’ve got things like ”what are the rest of us missing when we don’t understand or know much about the space we live in?” Really digging into the person’s thoughts here, right? And he says, ”We’re missing an understanding of ethics and etiquette.” She asked questions of ”how do you connect the idea of our knowing our natural surroundings to this notion as being free as human beings, what does that mean?” These are big picture questions here. Okay? And that’s one of the things. That’s one of the reasons I really split out these in the Q&A pieces because they are gonna be very different and very much like these more heady or hearty. They can be both ways. Not hardy with a D, but hearty with a T type of pieces that you’re gonna get to see in these independent magazines.

So this one doesn’t start out with that, “How are you this morning?” We get right to the meat of it. What’s the last great work of fiction you read? What’s your favorite singer, songwriter, artist? Is there a book that everyone loves but you? Why did you choose Portland instead of British Columbia? What do you like most about this part of the world? Do you have any favorite westerns? This is one of these Q&As; where it seems really like those, those questions picked from a random list at a speed dating party or something, right? And these are all in the same magazine. These are all different writer’s takes on getting to know these people.

This one here, the interviewee here is a wildlife photographer, and again, we’ve got something that’s quite verbatim here, but then she gets right to it. ”What was it like being a kid in Baffin Island?” She asked about the impact that his work as a photographer had on conservation in the Arctic and Antarctic regions, which he goes on about at length. She asks about being raised with an appreciation for storytelling and how is it difficult to see how we as a people have been separated. So these are really big-picture questions, okay? And this is the thing, right? This one, they can be big-picture questions. It really depends how the person takes to answer it, right? Somebody could say, “Is there a book that everybody loves but you?” And the person could go on and on and on and on at length. So you can see here also that these questions really the ping pong of it also has a lot to do with the verbosity of the person who’s responding here. So these are different styles of Q&A even within one publication, but you can also see how these Q&As; in an independent magazine context go into things like capitalism, you know about this. They’re very philosophical at times because that’s what they’re trying to do. They’re trying to get to the meat of what these people think, okay?

So let’s come back to the slides. If you have questions about the examples that we looked at. I’m back over on the chat screen now, so now’s a good time to drop those in there. So the last thing that I wanted to look at, we’ve talked about how these things play out. It depends entirely on the magazine in a very different way than the other types of articles we’ve looked at. It depends entirely on the magazine because it really relates to how they have rubricked out that piece. What if they don’t have a rubric? What if they’re an independent magazine? Then you get a lot of latitude for how you wanna treat the piece within the auspices of what the magazine publishes, okay?

So how do you pitch these then? We talked with profiles last week about how it can be really hard to say I’m pitching you a profile on da, da, da, da because you don’t know what’s gonna come out of that piece when you start working on it. Whereas with these interviews, you can to a certain degree, have a lot more knowledge about that because you are just gonna be putting the words that come out of the person’s mouth so you know what questions you’re gonna ask them. So you can in your pitch say, and I will ask them about this, this, that, and the other thing the same way that we outline it in the travel magazine database.

Also like with the profiles, you need to get permission from the person that they will commit to the interview before you pitch your piece. So what that means is that you don’t necessarily have to say, ”I’d like to do a story about you from Men’s Journal, would you be okay with that?” You can say, ”I’m interested in placing a story about you” or ”I’m going to contact some editors to see if I can interview you for their magazines. Would you be available for the story if it gets assigned?” Now, here’s the interesting thing about celebrity interviews. We did a workshop one time and I was…we were going through articles, ideas, and the person said to me, ”So Julia Louis-Dreyfus and so and so are good girlfriends of mine. Would that help me? Like, can I do anything with that?” And I was like, ”Woah, when we say girlfriend, what do we mean here?” And you know, is it like, ”You’ve dated her brother kind of situation.”

So the thing with celebrity interview pieces is that if you go to an editor that’s new to you and say, ”Hey, I’d love to pitch you an interview with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, you know, like she’s done this, this and this, you know, here’s what she’s doing right now. Like, would you be interested in this piece?” That’s gonna be a bong because the editor knows that she’s famous. What she doesn’t know is that you have access. So if you are pitching a celebrity interview, the pitch is all about that you absolutely have confirmed access to that person. And you can say that you guys are childhood friends, but that’s not the same as saying, ”We are childhood friends and I have spoken to Julia and she’s delighted to participate in the piece if it gets assigned.” Okay. You have to outright say that. You can’t just kind of imply that you know the person. You have to say that they have agreed and they’re willing to go with the piece if it goes ahead. That’s really crucial for the celebrity pieces with new to you editors, but it can help get you into a big magazine.

So something I just wanted to put out there that I noticed when I was going through is that if you’re in the Travel Magazine database and you’re looking for these pieces for those sections that I showed you, you will see two different tags. You’ll see interview and Q&A. So Q&A is going to be the term that we use in the database for ones that are that specific back and forth question and answer format. So that’s the tag that you wanna look for.

And with that, I will leave you guys to get ready for your weekends and I will see you soon or talk to you soon next week.

Article Nuts and Bolts – Putting Together a Profile Piece Transcript

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So this week we’re gonna be talking about how to put together articles. We’re getting back into a whole month of breaking down exactly how to put together different types of articles. And in the past, we looked at how to prepare a profile of a business. Now, one of the things that’s really different between putting either a profile of a business and a profile of a person is that a profile of a business tends to be a profile of success if you wanna think about it that way. It tends to be a profile of overcoming adversity, of creating. There are certain themes that almost always resonate with the profile of a business. And something that happens in profiles of businesses is that even though this business might be something super specific… I read a profile with a group the other day where we were looking at a profile of somebody in the Nordic countries who makes skis from a particular type of tree that has fallen, and they’re custom skis that are designed exclusively for each individual.

Now, it’s a European business, an American business person might be like, “Well, my business wouldn’t be like that in America.” Or they might be like, “Well, my business isn’t seasonal in that way,” or, “Well, I don’t have a custom business.” And so when you do a business profile it’s really important to pull out a lesson that is universal, not just for someone else who owns the business but for other people who are reading it who might not own a business. And that concept of taking something universal from one person or, in that case, one business’ story and making it something that really applies to any old reader no matter what their life is like, we’re gonna see even more as we talk about how to do a profile of a person.

Now, in the next couple of weeks, we’re gonna talk about some other things that you might think of as a variance on this. We’re gonna talk about how to do an interview which as you’ll see when we look at it next week tends to be a lot more related not necessarily to how to write a good story, so to say, which we’re gonna talk a lot about this week, but it tends to be related more to some rubric requirements on behalf of the magazine. So that’s why I’m separating in the recent profiles because in the writing side they end up being quite different. And then we’re gonna look at two other things that you might think of a kind of spin-off of a profile.

We’re gonna look at how to write and as a told to story right, which is where you’re writing the story of a person or something that they experienced and you’re writing it in first person even though you are not the one that experienced it. And so that can kind of be a variant on a profile because you can think of it like a biography or like an autobiography that’s ghost-written or something like that. Because you’re covering a lot of the same themes that might be covered in a profile but the style is very, very different in terms of its narrative rather than what you’ll see in the typical profile piece is that it jumps around quite a lot in time in a way that it doesn’t have a lot of chronology involved.

And then the last thing that we’re gonna look at is the I call it kinda like a celebrity recommendations or celebrity picks. So this is a type of article which is increasingly common in front of book sections these days where an individual is interviewed, like you would do for a profile or for an interview piece, about things that they recommend in a certain destination. And then you do a roundup of those things so the for what you’ll include in the roundup comes from the celebrity but then you’re doing separate research and you might be including quotes from the celebrity on what they think about those different places.

So you could think of that as a more focused profile in a certain way. But specifically what I wanna look at today is why we should focus our time and attention on writing profiles. This is really a skill that I recommend all of you develop if you haven’t done this in the past. And I think it’s a skill that even if you have written profiles in the past, it really is developed over time. It’s a type of writing that is very craft oriented, that you can always improve, that will be a different challenge with every person that you’re interviewing so it’s an exciting type of writing but there’s some other really neat, tangible benefits that we can get from this.

And then I wanna talk about who we can profile. And in this pilot discussion, I’m gonna pull us over to the Travel Magazine Database and look through some things in there. Because every other magazine, I swear, that we’ve put in the database I’m always shocked about the things that are in there in terms of articles that people would never have thought about pitching, that are just such easy wins and more often than not, those ones that are really no brainer, easy wins, oh, my God, I could pitch 20 of these to this magazine, tend to be the profiles because so often when I’m talking to writers about what stories they’ve come home from a trip with, they’re most excited about various people that they met and, of course, what those people are doing whether it’s an initiative or a business that person runs or something like that. But they don’t think or maybe they think but they don’t know where to put a profile just directly on that person. And so what happens is that part of knowing where to place these profiles is having access to different magazines and so that’s why I’m gonna pull us over when we talk about who we can profile, I’m gonna pull us over to the magazine database to look at some different samples there.

So after we talk about who we can profile and why we should profile, I’ve got queued up for you a really cool piece that came out recently which is a profile. And it’s a profile…it happens to be a profile of a celebrity and it’s… but that’s not why we’re looking at it. I know a lot of profiles tend to be of celebrities but I chose a specific one because it doesn’t feel like your typical celebrity profile. It seems like a profile of a person who’s doing something cool, so…who has had an interesting life and why he got that way. And one of the other reasons I chose this particular profile, especially, is that the profile doesn’t make a point exactly. The profile isn’t talking about how he did something exactly, it doesn’t map out, like I said, a very strict chronology. So it’s a really nice example of kind of the art of profile, what you can really do with these kinds of pieces and how you can use it to show whether it’s a lifestyle or a question of what is possible with life, something like that.

So that’s why I’ve chosen to show you this particular profile. Because it is a bit long and profiles do tend to be on the longer side, we’re gonna just look at one article today because I wanna really walk us through, and we don’t usually have time when we do longer pieces, to walk through the different beats and why they’re changing from this to this. And because profiles aren’t as formulaic as some other types of articles, I wanna make sure that we really have time to do that today so that you have an understanding of the kind of how they’re put together and the structure. So we’re just going look at the one article and then I’m gonna look at FAQ, some questions, both that I pulled together and also from you guys about how to pursue pitching profiles because there are some things about pitching profiles or any pieces that are specifically about a person that are specific that I wanna make sure that we discuss.

So let’s get into talking about profiles. So this is kind of a provocative question which implies the answer here but I wanted to put on this slide because it really lays things out. Would you possibly think that profiles, this one particular article type, are the secret to developing the skills that you need as a travel writer?

Like I said, it’s kind of a provocative question which assumes the answer. And I wanna explain why over the course of reading profile article over the years I’ve really come to feel this way. So profiles of individuals, like I said, how this need for universality, they need to take one individual person and show how anything that this person has done not only is interesting to some other person, to some editor or to you, but could be interesting to thousands if not millions of readers.

Now, that act of finding what’s interesting to thousands or millions of people about something is fundamental to having pitches that get accepted. I see a lot of pitches in general but I see a lot of pitches and especially at conferences when they do pitch kind of critiques where they either read people’s pitches out loud or people pitch live, there’s a lot of pitches where the pitch is front-loaded with a lot of things that are interesting to the person proposing the pitch, before you get to the part that’s interesting to everybody.

Now, there’s a really easy real world situation where I’m sure you’ve seen a lot of this come up, which is that, for instance, say you’re at a party or it happens to me just sitting in coffee shops listening to people talk to their friends, so anywhere where you might be hearing a person talk to their friends, for instance, people tell stories, sometimes it’s about a thing that happened to them, sometimes it’s about a thing that happened to other people. I think predominantly they end up being stories about things that happened to the person telling the story, but people tell stories.

And you can see, or if you’re present you can feel the other side and all the other people who are on the receiving side of that story perhaps their attention kinda starts to wane or you can see that they start checking their phones or maybe they’re like playing with the ice in their drink with their straw. They’re doing various non-verbal cues that show that they are not tied into the story. And so what’s typically happening there is that the person who’s telling the story is not making sure at every juncture, at every sentence, at every pause, at every fact, that the people following that story are not just engaged but getting something out of the experience of hearing the story.

Now, this is something that’s so easy to practice. Like you talk to your friends, you talk to your spouse, you talk to your mom on the phone, it’s so easy to practice making sure that the other person receiving information from you is consistently engaged. But what I find that when people write pitches and particularly when they write articles, there’s so many other things that you’re thinking about that you can lose sight of that.

In copywriting, if any of you guys have studied copywriting or followed the website Copyblogger, I’ll write it down because people always ask me, Copyblogger is a website that has been around since I started even considering freelancing I think, that it really breaks out a lot of copyrighting mentalities and things that have been around for hundreds of years that are just knowns in copywriting, but they say 80% of the battle is getting people to read the title, and then once they read that first sentence, the job of every sentence is to get them to read the next sentence. But I think when people write pitches and especially when they write articles this gets forgotten because you’re worried about so many other things. You’re worried about are you telling them enough, are you remembering to mention this cool, important thing that you saw, that you forget that the only point of your pitch is to get the editor to say, “I wanna hear more,” or, “I wanna assign this,” but for them to indicate interest in that idea.

Now, with an article, obviously you have to flesh out the idea, so the only point of an article isn’t to get them to say that I wanna read more or to indicate interest, but a good chunk of it is. So when you are working on a profile of a person, you are naturally confronted with thousands if not millions of things about that person that you could touch on. So what if this person, I’ll take an example of somebody that I know that I was chatting with this week, what if this person is the writer, but they also have a two-page piece, they used to run a company doing websites and resumes and business coaching for people because they actually bought a recruiting franchise off of somebody else and found that they hated recruiting and it felt very sketchy, but that people really needed help with polishing themselves so that they could even be viable for different jobs. but now after doing that for years, they’ve decided that they wanna…

And you know, you could just go down the rabbit hole of all of the details about this person. How do you turn this person…and that’s just their professional life, that’s not even talking about this person’s teenage daughter who she loves but feels like doesn’t need her, all this stuff, or where this person lives or this person’s background or where they grew up, how do you take all of those facts, or opinions as the case may be, all of these things that exist about a person and package it, not only into something concrete and not only into something that’s cohesive and hopefully has some sort of chronology or at least thread that moves along through it, but where every single sentence of that is interesting to somebody else.

Now, a lot of people think about this as finding the story or finding the angle. There’s a lot of journalism type buzzwords around the answer to this problem. But what I wanna posit today and why I’m really excited to look in-depth at one article with you guys is that cracking this on a profile, cracking this about one person makes cracking it about a destination or a business or a trip or any of those other things makes it suddenly snap into place. That figuring out how to do this about one individual, and particularly I feel like making someone else interested in another person, is hard for psychological reasons, which are that we have mechanisms that give us dopamine when we talk about ourselves, so naturally talking about other people that are not ourselves is less interesting and that’s why copywriting tends to be in that you, you, you, you, you and how you can benefit from this thing because you physically, chemically feel more excited reading that.

So having that hurdle of having somebody read about another person, which we can objectively understand just from this anecdote that I used of, you know, sitting in a party or sitting in a cafe and hearing somebody else tell a story to somebody or, God forbid, listening to somebody on a first date, we can objectively understand really easily how hard it is to make somebody else interested in hearing about you or hearing about a person who’s not themselves.

So cracking that formula on our profile will make it come together for all of your other writing. But it’s much harder to train yourself and to really think about that and narrow it down when you’re talking about a whole destination, or when you’re talking about a group of indigenous people, or when you’re talking about a whole experience that you had at a cooking school, or a whole trip that was 10 days on this island that takes 35 hours to reach from Japan. So it’s a lot harder in those settings because there’s not just one person and all of their facets to cover, but there’s all of these different inputs and all of these different histories that you have to consider whether or not to include.

So that’s why I feel like profiles are something not only that we should consider because there are opportunities to write them all the time in front of us, but also because cracking this, understanding this, not just doing it well, but feeling confident that we can take an assignment to do this and actually execute it, will have waves across the rest of your writing.

So that being said, let’s take a moment and move over and look at who you can profile. So I’m gonna switch what we’re looking at from the slides to some websites that we’re gonna look at right now are some entries in the “Travel Magazine Database.” But as I’m doing that I’d love to hear from you guys in the chat box about different profile opportunities, perhaps, that you’ve seen in magazines that you read or magazines that you looked at pitching, or other types of people or other reasons that you could profile somebody. So, for instance, some of the things that we’re gonna look at might be profiling somebody just because they’ve immigrated from a certain country, or profiling somebody who has a business that’s doing something unusual. So if you have some cool types of profiles that you’ve seen in magazine publishing, drop that in the chat box while I switch over to the other window.

So Annalisa has jumped up to the plate and she’s offered an example of a chef profile to focus, a visit to a restaurant or a food festival. That’s a really cool idea. Yeah, I really like that. If some other folks have ideas of different profile sections, let us know in the chat box. So you should be seeing my screen now, I’ve got “Australian Gourmet Traveller” pulled up in the background. So what I have done is I’m gone ahead and opened some different magazines that have profile sections here to show you kind of a wide breadth of super different opportunities for profiles that are out there.

Now, some of the ones that I have pulled up, and I’m actually gonna go over these to start, are airline magazines. If you haven’t heard me say it before, and even if you have, I wanna say it again, airline magazines are such a cool opportunity to get in with because airline magazines tend to be sharing editors between different magazines. You can get in with one editor and have a lot of different opportunities for very different places. But airline magazines are a great place to have one relationship where you can publish things on a lot of different places that you travel.

I’ve pulled up Qantas here. Qantas works with about 15 different freelancers every month so they really have a lot of need for articles. But then as you’ll see here, this is all the sections that are written by editorial staff, they also have a lot of things that are written in-house. And so what that means is, is that articles that Qantas is looking for in its magazine from freelancers tend to be ones that they can’t get anywhere else. So I wanted to bring your attention to this. And in case you are having trouble reading it, I’m just going to read it. This is a profile, kind of interview-based, but around a concierge of a hotel. Now, how easy is this to come up with? No matter where you are, no matter where you live, no matter where you travel, there are hotels where you could ask the concierge.

This is like such a thing that could go on your pocket magazine cheat sheet, which if you haven’t heard me say, it’s something where you just keep a list of magazine sections that are really easy to come up with no matter where you travel. So this “Ask the Concierge,” this is actually a Q&A, so it’s more of an interview style. But I really wanted to show this to you guys because it’s an example of the type of story that is related to an individual that you wouldn’t necessarily think about, but that it’s so easy to pick up different places. Now, you’ll notice that this magazine Qantas has a lot of different Q&As; that it does, it’s also got a Q&A with a celebrity and a celebrity around travel topics. They really like Q&As; for this magazine. So this is something that I want you guys to consider, not just that airline magazines are cool because, as it says here, they pay a lot, but also that they offer you opportunities that no matter where you’re traveling, you can pick up a cool profile or an interview. Now, I hope I have the right one. No, I don’t have the right one.

So there’s an airline magazine in Southeast Asia, and it’s not this one so I’m sorry I opened the wrong one, where they are just looking for profiles like this one that I wanna show you from Mercedes-Benz, they’re just looking for profiles of somebody who has moved from the destination that the magazine is about, anywhere else. And here in this one in Mercedes-Benz that I wanna draw your attention to, so this is a 1,000-word profile, so that’s a good chunk of words, of an interesting Canadian or Canada-based person. That’s a huge playing field, right? And what could be interesting? In this case, a renowned museologist, a comedian, a video game designer. So a profile of an interesting person, in this case, has a really wide bandwidth.

And I think a lot of people think that profiles can only be of celebrities or maybe of CEOs, and those do exist, profiles of people who you might think of as validated by the world as being successful, but you can also have things like this, like George Jacob, a renowned museologist, okay? So there’s a lot of different profile opportunities out there where the consideration, the important thing is that they’re interesting okay? So this is actually a combo one, this is an “enRoute,” which is Air Canada’s magazine. So this is a combo of a profile plus a Q&A at the end. And this is a profile of a frequent flyer. So this could apply, for instance, to…the examples that they’ve got here are an entrepreneur, a TV host, a Montreal-based illustrator. You can just be sitting on your plane to somewhere and chat with the person next to you and see what they do, or perhaps you see a guy, this often happens to me, I see a guy who is kinda chatty with the flight attendants, he’s clearly kind of got like a business look. You can tell that he’s probably on a plane two or three times a week for work.

So there are so many people that you can pick up that are frequent flyers. You might pick up people at travel conferences who maybe aren’t in travel right now, but they have another job that’s travel-adjacent and that’s why they’re looking at getting into travel blogging. Let’s look at a couple of other examples here. Now some magazines, especially “Cherry Bombe” is an independent magazine, some magazines have profiles as the majority of what they do. They tend to have a lot of articles that are kind of freeform, longer feature type articles and a number of those are profiles. And this magazine “Cherry Bombe” which focuses on women and food is a big one in that category. So they’ve got this section called “She’s the Boss” which is made up of 15 different articles that are around female chefs, business owners, CEOs, and entrepreneurs. Again a huge, broad category there, right? So there’s a lot of different people that could fit into this, okay?

So, this case, these profiles take a very strong service angle, how to remake a retail icon, how to get a cookbook deal, how to take care of business by taking care of yourself. And this is a chef talking about her calmer, stress-free restaurant experience. So here’s another independent magazine that I wanted to pull up which has a very cool an even broader type of profile. So five articles take the form of profiles can appear as Q&A but they focus on one person or multiple people around a theme and they cover the person’s career and personal life with entertaining and thoughtful anecdotes. So what kind of people do they cover? They’ve got three people who have started movements involving victory gardens. They’ve got a graphic designer talking about her home and career in Cornwall. They’ve got a hairdresser who gives free haircuts to the homeless in the UK. There are so many different people all over the place doing different things that you might already be meeting. But another cool way to pull the people to profile for some things like, for instance, that human section or I’m gonna pull another one in here…

Oh, I think it’s this one, yep. For that human section that we saw…or actually here’s a great example so “Jerry” is a magazine that focuses similarly to “Cherry Bombe” on food plus something. So this is food and the LGBTQ community and this is another one of those independent magazines where they’re purely feature-oriented and those features often end up being profiles. And this is a case where as long as the person fits into the narrative or the focus area of what the magazine is about, then you can pull an interesting story from them, if they seem to have done some interesting things in their life, then you can turn it into a profile, okay? Now, how that gets turned into a profile or how you pull interesting things from this person? That’s what we’re gonna get into and that’s what we’re going to talk more about. But I wanted draw your attention to the really different things available here.

And again, they don’t have to be some profiles of celebrities, they… It’s great if they own a business, that’s often something that can be useful, but they could also be working within, whether it’s the nonprofit world or the corporate world and doing something cool, or it could not really matter what they’re doing, for something like that “Leaders of the Pack” one that we looked at before in “enRoute” which was the Air Canada magazine okay? So I hope that sort of small tour that we did has helped you guys think a little bit differently about who you can profile.

But the idea really is that any time you’re traveling, whether these are people who you’re talking to who run places that you have stopped on your trip, whether you’re on an individual trip of your own design or whether you’re on a fan or there are other travelers that you’re chatting up, or they might just be people that you overhear in the hotel lobby or that you overhear in the coffee shop. As you are out there traveling, even if it is in where you live rather than traveling out there in the world, there are people who do something that matches a profile section that a magazine already has that is already open to freelance writers.

So when we talked about business profiles a couple of weeks back, I talked about how I’m really seeing a huge shift in magazines, that a lot of coverage is going toward profiles. So some of that is particularly business profile-focused, but a lot of it is these straight person profiles, like we’re gonna talk about today, or those other things that I am gonna talk about later on, like these celebrity recommendation pieces or the more Q&A interview style pieces.

Now, it seems a little odd, right, because a profile of somebody or an interview seems like it’s not universal, it seems like it’s not gonna be such an easy read to get readers into, but for the reason that we talked about before about universality, as long as they’re written well, the opposite of that is actually the case. So like I said, I’ve pulled up a really cool profile for you guys for us to look at today together. 

So let’s go over now and look at what the profile looks like on the page. So like I said, this is a long profile and I want us, and I’ve made sure to save time to do this, I want us to have time to go through it and see how the beats move from paragraph to paragraph.

So beats is a concept that actually comes from theater rather than writing specifically. So you could say that beats comes from writing because it comes from screenwriting or writing plays and dramaturgy and things like that. So, Sharon made a good point here, that there’s also beats which are beats for news. So let me explain what that is first because it might also be something that some of you are familiar with. So news beats are areas of coverage that somebody who might be called a stringer, which is a whole different term that we can get into, but news beats are a category of potential topic ideas which naturally fall upon a particular writer. So sometimes these are large things like sports or something that often gets covered in local news as things like committee meetings or city council meetings and things like that.

So that’s the word “beat” in a strictly journalism sense. So beat in a more craft writing sense means a change in drive which often displays itself as a change in tone. So I’ll tell it to you in the dramatic as in the play sense for a minute because I think that’s a little easier to understand. So in theater, when a person who’s acting in a play gets a script, an exercise that they sometimes do is that they read through the scenes that they’re in. And just from the words on the page, they think about where the tone or the pace or the focus of the scene seems to shift and they make a little line and they call it a beat. And then for that particular actor in every beat, they have a certain motivation. So in one beat, their motivation might be that they’re impatient because they need to go to a meeting.

And then maybe somebody says something and then there can…their primary drive changes to be concern for the well-being of the person they’re talking to because perhaps what changed the beat was that the other character said something emotional. They said that their mother had died or something like that.

And then as the person is talking about their mother being died…perhaps their mother having died, perhaps they start blaming the actor that we’re pretending to be. They start blaming that actor for how they feel or for something else that has happened. So then there’s another beat, and now our actor’s motivation has shifted, that they’re angry or they wanna defend themselves and their justifications. So the idea is that a beat in writing is every time there is this emotional shift in what’s happening. Now why does that matter in profiles?

It matters in profiles because they’re inherently about one person. But it also matters because a profile in many, many ways is this dialogue between three people. It’s the dialogue between the person who’s being profiled, the author who’s writing the profile and the reader. And that’s because of what I was talking about earlier about this constant check-in that should be happening, and I’m making hand gestures that, of course, you can’t see, but this constant check-in that the reader is still with it, not just still with it, but still with their involvement, still with their investment, still with their interest in the piece.

So part of how we do that in a profile with beats is that as we change not just the words on the page, the content and what we’re writing about, but as we change the pace and the tone and the emotion, we pull that reader through the journey. So I know this is a lot more crafty than we usually get in terms of what we talk about with these type of stories. But in profiles we just can’t avoid talking about these things of pace, tone, emotional drives, okay? So that’s why I wanted to take the time to go through one piece in a lot of depth because when you look at profiles they tend to be longer pieces. And unless you really go through and almost diagram it, which is what we’re gonna do together. it can be really hard to see where those beats happen.

So what I wanna do on the side is that as we are talking together… And I want you guys to interact and tell me what you’re seeing as well. So again, if you didn’t see it before, this is the link again to open up the piece, so make sure you have that open if you can. So what I really want us to do together is to talk about what beats we’re seeing and how they’re moving along. So I’m gonna type these along in the background just so that…some of you are in a good place where you can take notes, I know there are some people who listen to these while they’re at work kinda along in the background. I’m gonna have those so that we can visually look at them later. So let’s go ahead and get started. So like I said, the piece is about a celebrity, obviously, and it’s tied to his movie release. And I’m gonna switch the screen now, so rather than see my notes, you’re going to be seeing…there we go, rather than seeing my notes, you are gonna be seeing the screen that has the profile.

So this profile is about Woody Harrelson, it’s tied to the fact that his movie has just come out, but in a lot of ways, most ways, it has absolutely nothing to do with that. So, the title is “Woody Harrelson, Rogue Number One.” The tagline is “Hollywood’s cosmic cowboy is working furiously – all while performing science experiments on his reality.” So it’s weird and I’ve read the piece and I’m not even really sure that I would say that’s what it’s about but it’s definitely intriguing, isn’t it? So we know first and foremost that the concept that the writer is trying to get across here is Woody Harrelson’s experimentalism okay? So he dives right into that. So he says, “Woody Harrelson is 56 now, turning in mature, nuanced performances in lauded films including ‘Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri’ and ‘LBJ,’ the kinds of roles one might associate with Tommy Lee Jones or the late Sam Shepard. And, of course, he stopped smoking pot.”

So they start with this really dry kind of lead, kind of giving you a background on a person. Now the thing is do you need background on Woody Harrelson? Maybe not but he takes the background that he’s giving you and he focuses it. He focuses that background on what he wants you to be thinking about Woody Harrelson, as a person as being like right now. And then he kind of throws it, he says, “And, of course, he stops smoking pot. That was the news last year, anyway, when Mr. Harrelson, a cannabis evangelist on the level of Snoop Dogg, told reporters that he had broken off a long-term marriage with his intoxicant of choice. ‘It was keeping me from being emotionally available,’ he told New York magazine. So it was a somber new Woody I expected when I dropped in on his Maui home last month to discuss his role in ‘Solo: A Star Wars Story,’ Ron Howard’s splashy new film, which opened on Friday.’”

This was not the Woody I got.

Now, this whole bit there, until where I stopped, is pretty much the lead but what is this lead doing? This lead is background, this lead is straight background. We don’t have a scene, we’ve got some sourcing, and we’ve got some details, but we don’t yet have the scene. Now, I wanna say that this is an unusual lead for a profile piece. Profile pieces tend to start a lot more in medias res which is right in the moment, and sometimes it’s a little bit tried and true to the point of being trite so do be careful of this, the lead will be the arrival of the individual to the interview, or I’ve seen one, there’s a really interesting one on Christian Bale before he became like a polished leading man, when he was still kind of a bit psychotic and screaming at reporters, where it was basically talking about him sitting in his chair like twitching and kind of hiding in his hoodie and things like that.

The lead that we’ve just seen is a bit unusual and it almost strikes me like the part that we’re getting to now is actually what the writer wrote as a lead and then their editor told them that they needed to give some more background on it, so I just wanted to say that about what we just read, but it certainly sets you up to be intrigued, so. And then it continues, “It was an overcast Thursday morning, and I was seated at the kitchen table of one of Mr. Harrelson’s two houses on Maui. The glassy dwelling is perched several thousand feet up the slopes of the Haleakala volcano, with sweeping views of Maui’s northeast coastline in the distance. The plan was to hike the densely wooded property. As I waited for Mr. Harrelson to descend from upstairs, his wife, Laura Louie, wearing a blue fleece vest, was in the kitchen preparing a late-morning snack of fresh fruit smeared with spirulina and almond butter. Ten minutes later, the sound of footsteps.”

So what’s happened here? It’s not yet a scene. Right now we’re setting the scene. So we’ve got tons and tons and tons of description going on, right? We’re even told the color of the fleece vest that Woody Harrelson’s wife is wearing. So we’ve got tons of description setting the scene, and then we get into the first scene where we meet the protagonist, okay, who in this case is, the protagonist, of course, is the focus, and in this case, it’s the focus of the profile. So he arrives, “‘Dude!’ Mr. Harrelson said, in that familiar bad-boy drawl. He was wearing white beach pants, his yoga-toned torso draped in a well-worn “Free Willie” T-shirt with an old mug shot of Willie Nelson.” Who will play later in the piece, by the way, so that is a detail that they’ve planted there quite purposefully. “It was not just his attire that made him look like a 1990s slacker. He moves with the lackadaisical ease of a man half his age. He ambles more than he strides, loose limbed and carefree, like a restless teenager looking for mischief.”

“As he slumped into a wooden chair and planted his elbows on the table, we traded war stories from the afternoon before.” So this tells you that even though this is the first scene when we, the reader, are meeting Mr. Harrelson, this is not when the writer met him, okay? Sorry, I am saying “Mr. Harrelson” because that’s what they’re saying in the article. So “…traded war stories from the afternoon before, when Mr. Harrelson lured me into a pickup soccer game. It was a serious game. I lasted 20 minutes and mangled my knee in the process. He went the distance.”

“‘You almost got a goal, though,’ he said in the paternal tones of a Little League coach consoling a strikeout victim. Yeah, I said with a shrug. I hit the crossbar and missed by an inch, ‘A millimeter!’ he said.”

“After a brief exchange of pleasantries, he reached into his pocket, pulled out two cannabis cartridge pens and slapped them onto the kitchen table.”

“‘I was 20 months off of this, 20 months!’ he said, glancing down at the pens as if they were long-lost friends. ‘And then, Willie happened.’”

So what’s happened in this little bit that I’ve pulled us down to here?

So we met him, right? He said, “Hi.” I would keep this in the frame but there’s this photo in the middle. But then we have a scene where you’ll see that the writer is mixing in dialogue. “Yeah, I said with a shrug. I hit it…” but he doesn’t have this in quotes. So this scene itself, the way that the scene is presented, the way he describes being with Woody Harrelson itself is casual, itself is this lackadaisical back and forth. So this is something that you see in profiles, that the tone, the pace, the way that you outline the scenes should also come across with the emotion that you want the writer to experience as if they were with that person. So this is one of the reasons why profiles have more craft and less news, so to say, is that you need to use all of your faculties, which is word choice as well as tone, pacing, sentence length and things like that, yo convey an experience, and this goes back to what I was saying about how nailing this will make the rest of your travel writing, I really feel, fall into place.

And I just wanna say also I read a lot of profile pieces, in fact, I read another one that I thought I really loved that I was gonna share with you this week and then I read this one instead and I decided this was the one. So there’s a lot of good examples of these out here. And in addition to “The New York Times” where this piece is, some other good places to look are…”GQ” has some nice ones, a lot of the women’s magazines have nice ones, also “The Atlantic” sometimes has really nice ones. So there’s kind of pillars of journalism where you can read some really great exemplars of profiles on a pretty much weekly basis, okay.

So now we’ve got a beat, right, we’ve got that change, like when I was talking to you about the scene that we made up where the character, a character, has transmitted a piece of information that has caused everything to change. So earlier, that change was this was not the Willie I got. This time the beat is, “And then, Willie happened.” So the beats you’ll see here are incredibly, clearly defined in these profiles and that’s because… Well, profiles are made up of scenes in the same way that a lot of narrative pieces are. As I mentioned, the chronology is often way less clear than your average feature.

When you’re profiling a person, you might be talking about their childhood while going back and forth between the interview that you’re having and then talking about other things that lead up to stories that they told you in the… There’s all sorts of jumping around that happens. So when we switch, we need to signal that to the readers very clearly, okay. So now he’s got a subhead as well, which helps know that we’ve changed, so he says, “Willie Nelson, Ultimate Enabler.”

But we’ve stayed in the same scene but now Mr. Harrelson is telling a story. So you’ll see here how there’s also this extra transition to let us know we’ve changed in time.

“Taking a deep draw on a vape pen, Mr. Harrelson launched into the story about his breakup and reunion with marijuana.”

It started in 19…not 19, sorry, “It started in 2016, a few weeks before he was to shoot ‘Billboards’ near Asheville, NC. Wanting to get the partying out of his system, he embarked on a ‘friendship tour’ in Los Angeles, Houston, and New York. ‘That’s the nice way of putting it,’ he said. ‘It’s better than calling it a ‘you’re-going-to-host-me-at-your-house-while-I-have-a-bender tour.’”

Now, again notice how he alternates between actually having quotes and glossing over the quotes. And here he’s put a quote in because it’s fantastic, right? “It’s better than calling it a you’re-going-to-host-me-at-your-house-while-I-have-a-bender tour.” Now, this is really important when you do profiles, you are gonna have tons of quotes. I’m really big on getting quotes down exactly verbatim when they happen because they can be a big driving force in your piece. So having this whole piece…section right here rather than summarizing it. I’m not sure if you would go into such huge detail about it if you didn’t have these great quotes. So that’s something to also consider is that sometimes you have quotes where the quotes are so demonstrative of the person that it’s better to make a scene out of the telling rather than to summarize it. And this can be one of the ways that you pick what scenes you’re gonna have. So in my notes, I’m gonna say that now we have another scene which is really a reminiscing of the story of the bender tour. So, so far we’ve got background and then we’ve got two scenes, we’ve got meeting the protagonist and the story of the bender tour.

“The plan was to dry out in Asheville, but it turns out that the picturesque city ‘has, like, one microbrewery per person,’ he said, so he kept partying, “drinking a ton of beer, smoking one reefer after another.’”

“It took a tool. One night, a ‘really weird’ sensation took over his body, he said, ‘a crazy restlessness, unable to sleep, my lungs burning.’”

“He looked up the symptoms and self-diagnosed it as adrenal exhaustion. He took the next day off, then another, then another. ‘By Thursday,’” he said, “‘it’s four days,’” “This is a record!”

And it went on for a year and a half.

“Some were happy for him; Willie Nelson was not. The two are poker buddies on Maui with Owen Wilson and Don Nelson, the Hall of Fame basketball coach, and Willie did not take kindly to a weed-free Woody.”

So you’ll see we actually had another beat here. We had the story about Asheville, and now we’ve switched to the story about Willie, okay? So we’ve actually switched scenes now and now we have the scene of Willie Nelson, breaking him out of his sobriety. But even though these scenes are in reality quite short you’ll notice that we have a lot of them which is different than when we do narratives. In narrative features, we wanna have three scenes. And this is why I told you that structurally profile pieces are a bit different. You tend to have more scenes that are shorter in these profile pieces because you’re jumping back and forth a lot of the time.

So he said, “It was ‘a slap in the face,’ Mr. Harrelson said, ‘It just unnerved him. He’d keep offering it to me, and I’d say, ‘Willie, you know I don’t smoke anymore.’ He’d always act it like was the first time he’d heard it.’”

“Then, over one game, Mr. Nelson broke out a special blend he called Willie’s Reserve. ‘That’s not fair because the only way I’m going to taste the Willie’s Reserve is if I smoke it,’ Mr. Harrelson said. So after winning a huge hand, he caved.’”

“I take a big draw on it, and Willie says, ‘Welcome home, son,’ he said.”

“Spying the pens on the table…” now we’ve come back to present tense, okay? “Spying the pens on the table, Mr. Harrelson grabbed a small blue one and offered it to me for my swollen knee. ‘This is just a CBD pen,’ he said, referring to cannabidiol oil, a non-psychoactive extract that is said to alleviate pain. ‘There’s no THC in this. It’s good for calming and stuff.’”

So this rounds out, it kind of book-ends those scenes that we were in by bringing us back to the beginning. But what happens next? Have you really felt the beat here? There’s a little bit of a beat of us coming back to the present tense, right? But I couldn’t quite say that we know what’s happening next and so this is one of those times when the beat is introduced artificially by the subhead, okay? So even though the next line, “Mr. Nelson was not the only person who thought that order had been restored to the universe,” flows, it doesn’t flow with this.

It flows from this part where he says, “Welcome home, son,” but it doesn’t flow from coming back to the present. So why does he do this? He does it in a way to signal a shift from us which is that we’re leaving storytelling mode and now he’s gonna go into telling us more background, okay? So the next part that we have is background.

“So Mr. Nelson was not the only person who thought that order had been restored to the universe.”

“For three decades running, Mr. Harrelson’s excess has been part of his charm. He is Hollywood’s cosmic cowboy: a raw food gastronaut, cannabis connoisseur and eco-warrior who seems intent to peer at life through kaleidoscope goggles.”

So this is a lot of summary here, okay, and not too much explaining these things.

As a Hollywood actor, he is a highly bankable male lead. But as an idea, he remains a reminder to the rest of us mortgage holders and 401(k) planners, maybe you do not have to go gentle into that good night, maybe you can party, party against the dying of dawn.

“We are the picture. He is Dorian Gray.”

So if you think about it, this is background in a way but it’s also commentary. So I’m gonna note that over here. So we’ve got background and commentary. And then we come back to the present again.

After our snack, Woody slipped on an indica green fleece vest and led me out on a hike around his lush property.

“His reputation as Hollywood’s haute hippie is well deserved. He wore a white Armani tuxedo made of hemp to the 1997 Golden Globes, weaves reference to Paramahansa Yogananda’s ‘Autobiography of a Yogi’ into casual conversation and says he spent only $500 on his 2008 wedding to Ms. Louie. (They have been together since the ‘Cheers’ days in the 1980s and have three children: Deni, 25, Zoe, 21, and Makani, 12.)”

“So how did an astral voyager manage to claw his way to the top of a cutthroat business? Mr. Harrelson seems unsure himself. ‘I’m a good little worker, a hard worker,’ he said. ‘”But I’m also a world-class lollygagger. I really would prefer nutso to do.’”

“We headed down a steep road…” okay, so now we’re getting back into the scene but you’ll notice here that this quote, which moves us into the scene of him talking is a bit of a beat. So we’ve got this background, we’ve got this commentary and then we have a quote which we suppose is happening on this hike and we go back into the hike. So now we’re back into a scene which is the hike. And we’ll talk later about the purpose of this scene. I’m gonna read a little bit faster to make sure we can get through it because it kind of goes on for a bit.

“We headed down a steep road from his house. At that altitude, you feel little of Maui’s hang-loose beachiness. With a low fog hanging just above the loquat trees, Norfolk pine and lush ferns, the property seemed vaguely mystical, like a scene from Tolkien.”

“The light mist was turning the road slick, so Mr. Harrelson padded carefully in a pair of gray Allbirds sneakers, the same kind he got for his fellow Lone Star psychonaut Matthew McConaughey. ‘He was like, ‘ya put these on, ‘ya ain’t gonna wanna take ’em off,’ Mr. Harrelson said, imitating Mr. McConaughey’s lazy drawl.”

Being lazy is enough of an art for the two of them, Mr. Harrelson said, that they warped the English language to suit their shared desire for dawdling. Instead a “planning a vacation,” for example, they came up with “teeing a lollygag.”

“But if Mr. Harrelson’s ultimate goal is to do ‘nutso’ (Woody-ese for doing nothing), his life of late is a dismal failure. Mr. Harrelson has been reeling of five or six movies a year, while fellow marquee stars like Brad Pitt and Robert Downey Jr., no slouches, are good for maybe a couple.”

This year, he lollygagged his way to a best supporting actor nod for “Billboards,” qualifying once again as a scene stealer, even in a film for which his fellow stars Frances McDormand and Sam Rockwell took home statues. (Mr. Harrelson was nominated in the same category in 2010, for the military drama “The Messenger,” and for best actor in 1997, for “The People vs. Larry Flynt.”)

It is not so hard to see the appeal. Whether he is playing a lovelorn misanthrope in last year’s quirky indie “Wilson” or an intergalactic desperado in “Solo,” an innate likability, a folksy decency, shines through. Basically, he has become a stoner Jimmy Stewart.

Is that the beat? It feels like the beat to me but you’ll notice that we keep going in this in and out. And this is one of those things that I was saying happens a lot here, which is that we have these really micro-scenes where we’ve got the description of the road that they’re walking on, which leads us to this great quote about the shoes, and then more kind of slightly background description about his vocabulary, which then leads into the background about his movies and then we finally get a quote. So we’ve got the scene of the hike where we’ve got background…so we’ve got a description of the hike and then shoes with the quote, and the shared language around being lazy that he had developed. And then we get the background on what he has been up to and how it’s not so lazy. The scene, when we look at this, so there are so many scenes that I’m having trouble staying on the slide.

This is not to say he craves the spotlight. Mr. Harrelson said he was originally drawn to Maui in part for its distance from Hollywood. It’s where Lindbergh moved to, because it was so remote, and he was like the world’s first mage-star, Mr. Harrelson said. He just wanted privacy.

So you can see that this lead-up is really to use this great quote, right? So it’s all kind of vaguely a part of the scene but we really don’t talk about where they’re walking or what they’re seeing, we’re framing background on him around these quotes.

As we walked, his energetic black-and-white mixed breed, Monkee, bolted into the brush of a neighbor’s property, causing a violent rustle. Monkee! he shouted. I hope it’s not someone’s chickens.

“Bird murder apparently averted,” this is the one thing really about the hike that we see, “we continued along the road, talking about his upbringing. His father, Charles Voyde Harrelson, went to prison for the murder of a grain dealer, so Woody was raised as a scripture-quoting Christian by his mother, Diane Lou Oswald. The first time he thought about acting was in high school, when a group of football players goaded him into doing an Elvis Presley impersonation in the school library.”

“As we strolled down the path, Mr. Harrelson, arms swinging merrily, suddenly broke into a throaty rendition of ‘All shook up.’”

And I just got louder and louder, he said, and then the people started gathering around and clapping along. My inner performer came out. A girl named Robin Rogers invited him to the drama club. I was like, well, if Robin Rogers wants me to do a play, I’m going to do a play.

And now, four decades later, he was about to embark on a marathon publicity tour for ‘Solo,’ with red-carpet premiers in Los Angeles and New York, and appearance on “The Ellen DeGeneres Show” and “Jimmy Kimmel Live!”

“‘It’s part of the job, but after,” he said with an audible exhale, ‘I’m going to tee up a monster lollygag.’”

And this is a really nice beat here, right, because we’ve had, you know, a little bit of scene and we’ve had some background talking about how he got into acting but then we got this nice shift. And this shift, I mean, tee a monster lollygag, leads us into an actual lollygag, it leads us into talking about their lunch. And their lunch is included because as you’ll see, it really shows a lot about Woody Harrelson.

So the author says, “After the hike, we settled back at the kitchen table for lunch: a generous bowl of quinoa, sprouts, hijiki seaweed and avocado. Despite growing up in the barbecue belt (Texas and, later, Ohio), Mr. Harrelson says he is ‘philosophically, a raw foodist.’”

“His quest for gastronomic purity is infectious. As I munched on raw crackers smeared with macadamia nut butter, the thought of devouring, say, a cheeseburger seemed as wrong as munching on thumbtacks. Having recently dropped 35 pounds on an extended cleanse, Mr. Harrelson suggested a three-day mini-cleanse for me.”

“‘You might go through a healing crisis that might be a little bit tough,’” he said. “I luckily never go through those anymore, because I eat really clean.’”

Really?

“Realizing he was proselytizing, he caught himself.”

Laura looked up my name in a name book once. It means ‘sentimental sermonizer.’ I thought, “Oh, that’s ridiculous.” But then he heard his family laughing, “which can only mean that they thought it’s totally accurate.”

So this scene about the lunch shows us this other side of him, it shows that side where he’s a bit of the hot hippie that they were describing before, right? So this is the lunch scene. And then I get back into… You see, there’s a beat, these quotes are often used for beats, right? So they talk about the healing cleanse, about the cleanse, but then this kind of closes that, right? So they’re talking about the sentimental sermonizer. And then they move into what does that mean.

That quest for greater meaning extends to his film career. Despite steady work in blockbuster franchises including “The Hunger Games,” he loves art house fare. ‘With any indie, there’s a 99 percentile chance that people won’t be seeing it. But you’re like, “Damn, it’s good,” he said.

Even though he seemed to be surprised to be offered a major role in “Solo.” Mr. Harrelson plays Tobias Beckett, a grizzled interstellar bandit who adopts the young Han Solo into his outlaw crew.

“Once again, Mr. Harrelson proves the scene stealer, doling out folksy wisecracks and sly threats in a gunfighter drawl that somehow shrinks the light-years between Tatooine and El Paso.”

In a world brimming with “Star Wars” obsessives, Mr. Harrelson would not seem to be one. When he was offered the role, he said, “I was kind of psyched, like, ‘Oh, geez, this is gonna be really cool, to be in a ‘Star Wars’ movie.’ Unexpected.” But he turned it down.

He might not have accepted if it were not for the film’s producer Allison Shearmur, who also produced the “Hunger Games” films that he starred in. “It’s sad Alli Shearmur died,” he said, referring to the producer’s death from lung cancer in January, at age 54. “That really broke my heart.”

“She was the one. I turned down “Hunger Games” twice and she wouldn’t take ‘no.’ I turned one down, believe it or not. She wouldn’t take ‘no.’”

Once he was on set at Pinewood Studios in London, brandishing his blaster, Mr. Harrelson had no problems connecting with the character. “He’s a criminal,” Mr. Harrelson said. “And honestly, if I hadn’t run into Robin Rogers that day in the library, I probably would’ve become a criminal, too.”

So you’ll see here that both of these scenes are longer now. We’ve got here this lunch scene goes on from here and also this hike scene was going on the author here, right? So we’ve got scenes that are staying a little bit more in the present tense for longer but this scene also accomplishes some nice background. So it gives us the background that even though he takes his big roles, he frequently has to be goaded into them. So it’s a background about how he chooses his roles, okay?

So next we’ve got…it seems… “A film that seems to lie a lot closer to his heart is ‘Lost in London,’ which is also being released this weekend, on Hulu and iTunes.”

So we’ve seen how it seems like this piece is being done because the Han Solo movie is coming out. But we have the transition which tells us that he really cares more about these art films, and now we’re hearing he actually is one of those coming out now as well.

“A cinematic equivalent of primal scream therapy, the film is Woody at his most Woody, a brutally honest mea culpa wrapped up in an experimental black comedy that he wrote, directed and stars in, recreating a horrible night in 2002 when he ended up in jail.”

“At the time, his career was in a lull and he was starring in a West End pay, when one night, two women approached him, offering a ‘walk on the wild side.’ They were joined by a third. News of his menage a quatre was splashed across a British tabloid.”

Mr. Harrelson responded with an epic bender. After tossing back drinks at a Soho nightclub with Leonardo DiCaprio, he ended up drunk in a taxi. An ashtray was smashed. A door handle broken. Mr. Harrelson led the police on a foot chase, got arrested and spent the night in jail.

“I’ve been pretty lucky in life, but that was the time where everything just seemed to be going bad,” he said. His film career was tanking, he was a tabloid laughingstock, and his long-term relationship was in peril. “All the obstacles seemed so insurmountable,” he said.

The guilt from that night lingered. “I would have wanted the story to just completely doe,” he said, but “it wouldn’t leave my consciousness.”

Years later, he decided to work out his bad memories with his most personal and ambitious film yet. Changing only a few details (like swapping out Mr. DiCaprio for Owen Wilson), he attempted to recreate that night in real time, shooting the entire film in a single take across 14 locations in London, and streaming it live to 500 theaters around the world.

“It could have been a disaster (The Guardian called it a “miraculous oddity”), but, hey, that would have been part of the journey, too.”

In the end, Mr. Harrelson said that he was fascinated by the honesty of portraying himself as an antihero looking for redemption (as well as a few laughs). Would the audience forgive his excesses, as his wife had?

Now, there’s a beat here where we’re switching from this very straight, this is a very straight story about that film and how he shot it and how he screened it, to now we’re getting a little more philosophical. What was the commentary on this? So we’ve got a scene which is really relaying very chronologically the story of the new film, okay? And then we go out, now where we think the present day. We don’t know exactly when he said this though.

He says, “I mean, she’s the most understanding woman I’ve ever met,” he said. “She’d have to be. Just imagine living with me for 30 years.”

“The film may be a warts-and-all self-portrait, but it also seems to capture a deeper truth about its creator: People expect Woody to be out there, testing boundaries. They would not want it any other way.”

“That point was driven home to me the day before,” so you feel that little shift here, “They would not want it any other way.” is a bit of a shift, right? That point was driven home to me the day before, after our soccer match. With the daylight fading, Mr. Harrelson and a few of the guys hung around, gathering in circles on the sidelines. One of them toted over a chess set, placing it in the grass between himself and Mr. Harrelson, a skilled player.

“As they started a tense round of speed chess, pipes were passed and the smell of cannabis wafted into the humid air. Mr. Harrelson took a deep hit while staring intently at the board, unaware that his wife and younger daughter, Makani, had pulled into the parking lot to ferry him home.”

“‘Daddy, you’re not supposed to be doing that! his daughter said. A look of guilt flashed across his face. Then she threw her arms around his shoulders, embracing him in a long hug.”

Now, this is very classic, to end a profile with a scene. So in the way where we’ve talked about, I’m gonna go over to my notes now, in the way where we’ve talked about narrative pieces having this step, step of three different scenes that lead us to our final point, you can see here that, here it is, that the scene with daughter chastising him and then hugging him is meant to be a microcosm for how his whole career has gone, and they’ve got the film as the last thing before that because the film is also a microcosm of something that went totally wrong and then he was able to turn it into a hug in a way.

Let’s look back at how that concept has played out throughout the piece. So we’ve got these scenes where we’re in the kitchen, we’ve met him, and this is the day after the soccer match. And in the kitchen, we have all of these things. We’ve got we meet him, we hear the story of the bender tour and about Willie Nelson breaking him out of his sobriety.

Now, this is really interesting because you would think being sober would be a good thing, but to his people, to his friends, that was weird. So this is also a story of him doing something that was “wrong” and then being reembraced, okay? Now, on the hike, we’ve also got some sort of rambling, meandering stories, you could say, right? We’ve got the shared language he has with Matthew McConaughey about being lazy. There’s background about what films he’s been doing recently. And then there’s a story about how he got into doing acting. And that’s kind of what wraps that up before we get to this hippie hot lunch.

And in that story, the football players have goaded him into doing an impression of Elvis, but then more and more people keep coming and clapping and he’s celebrated. So what’s happened here, even though there’s all this other background, you can see all of these different, little, mini scenes that are going on, this being woven into this. Each of the sort of the cherry on each of these larger meta scenes is a story of a moment in which he’s like done something that seems like he should be chastised or seems wrong or seems something and he’s applauded for it, he’s embraced. So I told you when we first looked at the story that I thought it was interesting that they called that… I’m gonna go back up, I know that you guys aren’t on the same page necessarily, but they said “Hollywood’s cosmic cowboy is working furiously – all while performing scientific experiments on his reality.”

I don’t know if I feel like that scientific experiments on his reality is an accurate moniker and often the deck or that subhead of a story has that characterization where it seems like a little bit off. But I definitely think that we can see that the writer is performing some really cool experiments here, you can say, with how they put this together. So we’ve got here is that kind of success, here is that success. We’ve got that other one here with the story of his film and about how he got into acting.

What you see here of the structure, and the reason why I wanted to really take the time to go through a whole piece, is that, like I told you, they jump around a lot. So he’ll be sitting with the protagonist and then we’ve got story after story, which has some commentary in between and there’s some background of what he’s been doing. And then we’ve got them walking but then there’s stories happening as they’re walking. This is really normal for a profile piece. So some other things that you commonly see in a structure or a profile piece, like I told you before, is they do typically start with a scene, and I really feel like that part that came before the scene here might have been something added afterwards and it felt like that scene in the beginning where he describes sitting in the kitchen, which is really where that piece was intended to start.

And so what you did see here though which is very classic is that rather than have a wrap up where the writer tells you what to think about the character, they almost always wrap up with a scene that allows you to draw your own conclusions about the person being profiled. But then within that, within the scenes that are happening, before that or in the middle of that first scene and that last scene, you have what you might call meta scenes where the writer is with the person being profiled and stories are being told, chronological shifts are happening within that scene. And there is also background laced in between each of several mini stories or mini scenes. So this is really typical for how a profile is put together. So on the one hand, it means it can be a bit crazy-making because you’re including so many different scenes, right? We’ve got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 15 scenes on this piece probably with 3,000 or 3,500 words.

So if you had a piece that was like a more normal 1,500 words you could very easily have 8 different scenes, 8 different back and forths that you’re doing in a profile piece. And that means that you just keep them all to a word count of like 150 words or 200 words or something and keep them tightly within that. But it doesn’t mean that you have fewer scenes. Profiles are really built around giving different facets of a person that build up to not stating outright what you want as the writer, or what you want the reader to understand about the person being profiled, but that lead-up to a scene, that encapsulates all of those other ones that you’ve talked about for the reader to decide for themselves what they think of the person being profiled. So it’s pretty much always a scene.

Now, something that you’ll see here which is very classic for let’s call it a big budget profile, whether that big budget is a big magazine or a big celebrity or whatever, is that the person doing the profile tends to spend more than one sitting with the person being profiled. So sometimes I’ll meet them on completely different occasions and sometimes as it is in this piece, they will meet them several times in one day. So I promised we’d have time on how you pitch this so I wanna make sure that we get to that.

So something that happens here with profile pieces is that you do not know in advance what it will be about, very much like destination pieces. And again this is one of the reasons that I love profiles as a way to train your ability to write destination pieces is that you need not only to have the aggregate of the interviews or experiences with the person you’re profiling to figure out what you’re gonna write. But you also need to think on them for a bit. So when you’re pitching that you will profile a person, you can pitch about what’s interesting about them that’s already known or that quick why, why the person picking up the magazine that the editor edits would jump to read about this person, but you can’t pitch where the story will go. Now, you also can’t do it because you don’t wanna do the interviews first. Why don’t you wanna do the interviews first? First of all, because you don’t know what direction the editor might want you to take the piece in.

Secondly, you don’t really know where the piece might appear, you don’t know where it’s ultimately gonna be accepted. But you do need to get permission to do the piece first. And so what that means is you say, “Hey, I’m thinking about doing an article for you.” And you might say when you pitch it to X magazine or if you’re not super confident in your ability to place in X magazine. You might say, “I’m pitching a profile article about you to a number of magazines. Would you be available to participate in it if it gets assigned?” That’s all you need to say there. So you don’t need to go into a lot there about what the piece will be about, about where it will be published because you don’t know until you get the pitch. You don’t wanna get into a situation that will negatively impact your relationship with the source and with the story where you’ve said it’s gonna be somewhere and then that’s not where it’s placed or you’ve said it’s gonna be about something and then the editor wants it to be about something else.

And thank you, guys, so much for joining. I hope you enjoyed that piece and I know it’s probably better reading it on your own than with me but I hope that the commentary was helpful. I hope that it will influence on just how you read other profiles in the future, but also that you might start getting into thinking about doing your own if you’re not already. So thank you, guys, so much for joining me. I hope that the rest of you guys have a great rest of your evening, the rest of your day if you’re out on the West Coast, and a great weekend, and I’ll talk to you guys next week.

The Guidebook Guide Series – The Writing Side of Guidebook Work Transcript

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We are talking about The Writing Side of Guidebook Work. Now, in, not yesterday’s webinar, but in the two webinars preceding this in May, we looked at different facets of what it means to be a guidebook writer today. We looked at why anybody would wanna be a guidebook writer today. We looked at some of the things that have, kind of, been said online in blog posts and also in print as in newsprint about being a guidebook writer. And we looked at what the pay is like, we looked at what different companies you can work for, we looked at what the average day is like, how different that is or isn’t from a normal travel writer on a normal family trip. And we talked a bit about how to organize your notes.

That last bit we’re gonna talk more about today, but otherwise most of the things that I mentioned are things that we covered quite a bit in the previous webinars, so we’re not gonna go into quite as much today. So specifically, what I wanna look at today, as we talk about the writing side of guidebook writing, is, to start with, what does it really mean? When you think of writing in a guidebook, what do you think about? And it’s a question that I’ll ask you guys later, so you can go ahead and throw it in the chat box now or later when I ask the question. But what are some adjectives that you think about when you think about what guidebook writing is like? Whether those are related to the quality, or the presentation, or the physical content, just some adjectives that you guys think about that. Feel free to drop those in the chat box at any time. We’ll talk about those in a little bit.

And then we’re gonna look at the type of, and I said, “articles” that you’ll write for a guidebook. Because any book enterprise is a huge endeavor, and even if, as is the case with a guidebook, you’ve done so much research, you feel like you’re so prepared, you feel like you’re over prepared, when you sit down to write at the amount of writing that you have to do, it’s not just that it’s overwhelming, it’s that it needs to be chunked out into achievable things. And with guidebooks, there’s some very discrete types of “articles” that do very easily jump out in terms of what it is that you are producing. So we’ll look at what those types of articles are and how they differ.

And then, we’re gonna talk about the style that you see in guidebook writings. Now, we talked in the first webinar in the series, for those of you that joined us for the first webinar, about the different companies and how the style can definitely change from company to company, so that’s definitely something to keep in mind. And we’re gonna talk about the style of guidebook writing as it translates into these different types of articles, but also more generally. And then what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna go look at, I’ve pulled up full guidebooks from a couple different, actually a few different guidebook companies. So you can see these differences in style, and you can also see how these different types of “articles” that I’ve talked about break out in real life in the different guidebooks. Both different types of guidebooks in scale as well as different guidebooks from company to company.

So one caveat that I’ve been saying throughout all three of our webinars that we’ve done on guidebooks is that, this is one of the really few rare things that I’m gonna talk to you guys about where I have not spent a big chunk of my career specifically studying this or doing it itself, or something like that. Now, previously, the reason was it seemed like writing for guidebooks was not the best use of one’s time financially. And interestingly enough, like as I’ve become interested in it recently, there was one guidebook that I was like, “Oh, that looks good.” Like, “I think I’ll go for that guidebook, and I wasn’t quite sure. And then I met someone else who wrote for that guidebook company and she had a really good contract, and then just as I went to apply for it, that guidebook wasn’t available anymore, but somebody that I coached is now doing that guidebook.

So I’m really happy to say that you can definitely get these guidebook assignments. And that’s why I wanted to put together this set of webinars for you. So what I’ve done to make sure that what we’re talking about is both very up to the minute and relevant, in addition to studying the guidebooks that are on the market now, which you’ll see, like I said, we’re gonna go through some guidebooks specifically in Google Books in a little bit. But in addition to studying the guidebooks on the market now, I have close freelance writer friends who’ve written many guidebooks over the course of many years, and I’ve spent a lot of time chatting with them about what it’s like for them both on the writing side, as well as getting the work and on this, sort of, inside track of what it’s like with the companies. And I’ve even got information that comes from experts who run the guidebook companies like Pauline Frommer, so people on the editor side, as well.

And something that I don’t have here on the slides is that, in our first webinar on the different guidebook companies, somebody had asked a question about what’s going on with Lonely Planet. He had heard some news lately about Lonely Planet isn’t taking on new writers for right now or something to that effect. And so, I just wanted to slightly recap that and add a little bit of extra information, because we will be looking at some Lonely Planet books today. So I just wanted to put this out there because I know that they do often tend to be the one that people think of first, and they look easy to write for. And we’ll look at them later.

So the thing with Lonely Planet is that they were owned by an Australian couple who are really, really lovely. I’ve met the female, the wife of the previous owner, the founders, and really, really lovely people, and they sold it, and then BBC owned it for a bit, and BBC sold the whole company of Lonely Planet at a really enormous loss. Basically, they took a loss of about half the value. So sorry, I just had a really huge sneeze. So they took a loss of a half of the value of the Lonely Planet company. And it was bought by a company here in the States, and it’s been based in Nashville for a bit. And then the company who’s been running it out of Nashville has been doing some really interesting things, and they say that with a little bit of a tone, and you’ll see why. Really interesting things in terms of how they’re trying to monetize Lonely Planet. And some of that involves having destinations or hotels, or things like that, kind of pay to be in control of the content that shows on the Lonely Planet site and maybe even in the Lonely Planet books.

And some other interesting blurring of the boundaries between what a consumer thinks they’re getting from a guide, and ways to make money. And so, it came to my attention very, very, very recently while I was doing this guidebook series and after I had done the webinar presenting the different companies to you guys that Lonely Planet is semi-secretly up for sale again. So there will be some future changes in how Lonely Planet works that are to be determined that we don’t know as of yet. So, I wanted to put that disclaimer in here as well before we get into talking about it because I am gonna show you some Lonely Planet guides going on, because those are some examples that I already had pulled up before I had this information. So, before we get going, I asked you guys to think about this before and drop some in the chat box if you already have them.

So now is the time. Tell me, you guys, what words, what adjectives come to mind when you think of the quality or style of writing in a guidebook? And like I said before, these can be related to the type of content, these can be related to the quality of the book, these can be related even to, kind of, like your expectations of a reader, or of how you’re gonna use the book. So let me know some of those in the chat box. And I wanted to also bring up some of the ones that we had in the original recording of this call, and so, I’m gonna share those with you, as well. But in the meantime, you guys put the ones that come to mind for you in the chat box.

This is a great comment. I love it. And I love, Artemis, if you could share with us what you mean here by hilarious. Hilarious is actually like funny to read or if they’re quality-wise. So for those of you who are listening in on a cellular phone because you’ve got some other work going on in the background, Artemis had said that she was skimming a Yosemite guidebook today and found the descriptions hilarious. And this is actually something that you’ll notice.

I’m also curious what company this was that the amount of, let’s call it, tone going on in any particular guidebook is really going to vary quite a bit based on what company the book is coming from, okay? So that’s definitely worth keeping in mind. So something that we talked about in the Players In The Game webinar is that there are some companies, notably Frommer’s and the Moon Guides, or Avalon as they might also be known by, where they prefer to have one person write the whole book to have a sort of tone going through to instill a sense of authority and have the reader, kind of, trust that there is this person who is leading them to the destination.

And so, in the books that are more of that nature, you will often find a lot more of this voicey sort of thing. What you can also find in those books is a sense that is often missing from a lot of travel writing. And I saw really, I was on Facebook for five seconds today to look up something for work and I saw a really interesting post about this, about a child who left a field trip because of how whitewashed the history was. And something that people talk about a lot in terms of travel writing generally, is that, frequently it’s only the positive that gets covered. And that’s because as magazine editors very correctly and astutely say, people buy magazines to see where to travel, not where not to travel, and there’s already so many things that they’re curating in terms of what to put in there. Why would they write something negative about a place?

And I think that with guidebooks, people are sometimes surprised or feel a little bit permission to do something which they don’t often get to do, which is that ability to get to say something negative about a place. And so that’s something that you’ll see in the tone of writing in guidebooks, as well. Beth has a great point here about the DK Eyewitness guides. They are so visual, and they’ve done a really cool thing there of, even though there’s very little writing compared to other guidebooks, they’re very visual books, and there’s not even a lot of recommendations.

They’ve created this sense of authority through the quality of their visuals and the way that their book is laid out. The books have a sense of being a lot heavier, a lot weightier. For instance, Rough Guides are on this, sort of, black and white paper, which is very thin, which, kind of, gives you this sense of things being cheap even though I think a Rough Guides as being like a slightly, you could call it middle class. Maybe not upper middle class, but it’s a solidly middle class sort of guidebook.

So some of the words that I sometimes hear people say about guidebook writing, and sometimes they say dry, sometimes they just say descriptive, comprehensive is another one. And sometimes people say light. And there’s some interesting things that are happening that go into these different characteristics that different individuals have noticed with the guidebook writing. And that is largely this kind of fight that’s going on, which is between being comprehensive and a necessary type of superficiality when you’re covering truly a lot of things in a small space.

So I’m gonna go a little bit out of order here. I’m gonna pop over to something that I’ve got open in my browser for us to look at for later. I wanna show you some text which is an introduction of a place. And I just wanna look at it and read it really briefly with you guys, because this particular one that I’m gonna show you really encapsulates a lot of the things that people say about guidebooks in terms of the writing that are a bit complainy. So I wanted to look at this just so we have a sense of what, you could say, “bad guidebook writing” is, but also so we can talk about why this happens.

So this is in Fodor’s, which you would definitely think of as a middle class, upper middle class type of guidebook, and this is their intro. Again, we’ll talk about the different article types in a little bit, but this is their intro piece for the Amalfi Coast. So I’ll just read you a little bit, so you can get a sense of it. “One of the most gorgeous places on Earth, this corner of the Campania region captivates visitors today just as it has for centuries. Poets and millionaires have long journeyed here to see and sense its legendary sights: perfect, precariously perched Positano; Amalfi, a shimmering medieval city: romantic mountain-high Ravello; and ancient Paestum, with its three legendary Greek temples. Today, the coast’s scenic beauty makes it a top destination, drawing visitors from all over the world who agree with UNESCO’s 1997 decision to make this a World Heritage Site. This entire area is also a honeymoon haven–it is arguably the most romantic stretch of coastline on Earth.”

Okay. So that part that I left you with as well as the beginning, we can say, “Wow. How much hyperbole can you put in one paragraph.” Right? We’ve got, “One of the most gorgeous places on Earth,” and then we’ve got, “arguably the most romantic stretch of coastline on Earth.” Now if you’ve ever been to a beach in Southeast Asia, I don’t know if you would agree with this, I personally took my honeymoon somewhere else even though I spent a lot of time in Italy, so I definitely don’t agree with this.

Also, this thing about “one of the most gorgeous places on Earth,” that’s definitely subjective depending on what somebody’s view of gorgeous is, right? There’s a lot of hyperbole in here that you could think of as a bit unfounded, perhaps giving readers places to disagree, and it’s because it comes from this type of marketing-esque language, right? We’ve got “the coast’s scenic beauty,” “scenic” is a totally useless word, right? “Makes it the top destination,” according to who, like by what metric? “Drawing in visitors from all over the world.” Okay. I mean, I guess that’s slightly specific. We’ve got one sort of specific thing in this whole paragraph.

UNESCO in 1997 made it a World Heritage Site. The other maybe specific you can say we have is that we’ve got three legendary Greek temples in Paestum. I don’t know what temples. I don’t know why they’re legendary, were there actual legends written about them or is this just more hyperbole? We’ve got a little bit of wordplay here on “perfect, precariously perched Positano” and besides that, like, you know, with Amalfi they could say what century it’s from rather than “shimmering medieval.”

There’s just a lot of what you might think of as, kind of, overview marketing speak in here. And this is actually better than another one, which I believe is from Lonely Planet that we’ll look at later as well. And Artemis very accurately calls this “fluff,” or very pointedly rather is perhaps better. So this concept of fluff, or of marketing speak, or of being a bit superficial, this is also a characterization that you sometimes see given to guidebooks and not inaccurately. So as you, as the writer, are working on a guidebook, you need to both understand why this happens and what you can do to prevent it. So there are very clear reasons why you end up, especially in those intro to regions with this type of writing and that’s because it’s a very daunting task in one paragraph, two paragraphs, maybe three or four to put an appropriately weighted, appropriately pictorial stamp on an entire place to give somebody the ability to make a decision about whether they should go there.

And that leads us to something that bears keeping in mind, which is that guidebooks are written inherently for two different types of people. They’re written for people who are there, who are going there who are literally picking up their dinner that night and people who are shopping for places to go. Either they’re shopping for countries to go to for entire trip destinations, or they’re shopping for places to go within one specific area. And that also creates this conflict that creates superficiality. When you’re writing for two audiences that have very different needs, it can be hard to serve either of them accurately.

So one of the things that I think also happens that leads to the superficial writing sometimes goes back to what I said earlier at the top of the call, which has to do with the organizational aspect, the breaking up of the book into appropriately-sized sections, and simply physically getting it done.

Now, guidebooks don’t have expansive writing timeframes. To be honest, most books that are assigned by a publisher don’t, because once they decide they’re paying for it, they wanna have the book out and start earning money from it as soon as possible. So what happens, though, is that a lot of people who have a guidebook assignment and this isn’t their seventh guidebook or something like that, or it’s really something that they do as a full-time job. A lot of people get really caught up in the travel and the research, and they know that they need to do X, Y and Z things, because they’ve gone over the outline for the book with their editor, so they really know what it is that they need to pick up. So they’re out there, they’re picking up all these things, they’re busting their butt to get that stuff. And then, when it comes time to write it, it’s a whole another full-time job.

And I think that this often maybe not catches people by surprise because they certainly know it, so it seems weird to say that they’re surprised by it. But I think people often find themselves unprepared by the sheer amount of writing that they need to do, and also the research they need to do past what they’ve already done. And this is one of the big separators that you’ll see. Maybe not so much in those opening paragraphs that we just looked at, but in some of the ones that we’re going to go into, is that you really need a level of depth especially in some of the sections that people don’t consider, which we’re gonna look at, but you really need a lot of depth in your guidebook that people don’t bring to an online guide.

And when I say “online guide,” I mean when people write blog posts that are, kind of, about a destination. I saw a pitch, for instance, today that was to a print outlet that had this structure that you guys might be familiar with, which is, kind of, you know, “Here’s the place, here’s the introduction, where to see, where to stay, where to go, maybe how to get there and what to eat of course,” right? So this has been a really common format that came from the guidebook, buy then transferred over online. But what happens is that, because guidebooks, like I said, are intended for people who are shopping on the one hand, but on the other hand for people who might be physically there right now. And they are intended to stand alone, which means that somebody shouldn’t have to use their cell phone even though we know they probably will, but they shouldn’t have to use their cell phone alongside a guidebook in order to navigate.

So part of writing a guidebook is also that you usually need to be doing the maps or working with somebody to do the maps. But they also need to have information in the entries that helps them navigate, and we’ll see some of that later. But these might be things like, for instance, I’ve gone to Bali several times, and there’s a lot of sort of homestay-type places that you can stay in Bali, and everything, at least there’s in Ubud, in the town that I usually to go to. In Bali, there’s mean streets and then there’s just rows and rows of buildings along those streets and they seem really congested. And then you walk down the alley, and you realize that there’s a big expansive space of rice paddy farms in the middle, and it’s just farmland in the middle of what seems like this really busy street.

So what happens is that the way to get to a lot of these homestays is actually like to take an alley and to pass this, you know, chicken coop and to go under this clothesline, and there’s the door, but you have to go up the stairs and have to knock on the red door and not the blue door and only during these hours. And then you can stay somewhere for like 50 cents a night and have a beautiful lovely breakfast with a fresh fruit salad. So that type of information is something that, I’m not saying people don’t include in a blog post that they might be writing about this, but they tend not to include such deep level of detail in each and every thing that they’ve included in a long list posted about different things.

Whereas with a guidebook, you can’t expect people to click over and find more information about this place somewhere else. So it needs to be really stand alone, and that creates the need for a lot of research both on the ground, and also when you get back as well as fact-checking that research. Now, the other thing that comes up with the writing part of guidebook writing that people really don’t necessarily think about, and sometimes get struck by when they sit down to write their book and start looking at some other books that are similar, and, kind of, the breadth of things that they need to include there, is how much unconscious bias they introduce into their travel. So, for instance, Pauline Frommer told me this really cool thing, which is that when she is working on books, I believe she still writes the annual update. I think it comes out every year, but it could be every two years for the New York book, because she’s based here, that she does all these really sneaky things to get to see different types of hotel rooms.

Now, would you think just off the bat when you go to a hotel that you need to look at different types of hotel rooms? Probably not. I wouldn’t necessarily think about that. I would, just having been on FAM tours, I know that they’re typically always gonna show me like the four or five suites and different things like that because that’s, I’m on a FAM, but you’re not necessarily thinking about why you need to see these different room types. so Pauline has this really excellent way that she describes it. So she makes up these scenarios, and she used to be an actress so this is totally her thing, but she makes up these scenarios of different family members who might be coming to visit and she needs a room that suits this thing. So she might say like, “Oh, my aunt has a problem with her knee, so she needs an accessible room, but it needs to be a room with two beds because she needs to sleep in her own bed and her husband needs a separate bed. But then, my cousin has these three kids, and so, they really need like at least one adjoining room set, and preferably a room that has two adjoining rooms.”

And she makes up all these things, and she goes to the front desk of a hotel and she doesn’t say that she’s Pauline Frommer, and she says like, “I live here and my family’s coming, and I want to see if this hotel would make sense for them. Can you show me some different room types?” So this kind of thing she’s been doing for ages. She learned this from her father, so she knows what to ask. But if you didn’t, while you were there, look at restaurants that would be good for the couple who has a child that’s really young, and they don’t want to eat early like you might think of for families with kids, they wanna put the kid to bed and then put the kid in the stroller and then go out and have dinner at 10:00. So where can they go at 10:00 as a couple looking for something slightly romantic, that’s not gonna be totally white tablecloths and it will be okay for them to walk in with a sleepy baby?

So there’s all of these different types of travel situations that you need to address or be prepared to offer options for in your guidebook that you might not think they are unconsciously biased from looking for when you travel. So because of that, in this day and age of writing, guidebook writing might be the most, kind of, unbiased, forced lack of bias, let’s say, that you’re gonna do in your travel writing portfolio. So let’s get into talking more about how these guidebooks are split up, and how that plays out in the different article types and look at some guidebooks. So as a guidebook writer, you are working always on two levels. You’re working on the level of your book, and you’re working on the level of an individual chapter. Then within that individual chapter, there’s these articles that we’re gonna look at.

But what happens is that, what if you’re only writing a chapter? So this is really common. This can happen. There’s a lot of larger books, especially books that are multi-country books where you might be writing just the Paraguay chapter in the whole book on South America, say. Now, in that case, the book level concerns aren’t your own. And so that’s great because the book level stuff is the stuff that has a lot of research that you might not already be thinking about doing. So we’ll get into exactly what that is. But then on the chapter level, chapters really break out on the whole, and like I said, we’ll look at some actual table of contents’ of some guidebooks in a few minutes. But chapter level-wise on an average destination chapter, a region chapter, things break out that you’ve got the intro to the region, you will have service information around how to get there, and you will then probably have further distinctions of different cities, places outside of cities, other vacation spots, things like that.

And within each of those, you will have a mix of, again, introduction, again, some service information, and then you will have site profiles, so that’s like of an attraction or a historic site or something like that, lodging and food and nightlife profiles. And each of these have a slightly different way that you write them, and we’re gonna look at those. But the important thing to think of on the book level is that guidebook chapters are divided into two styles. They’re divided by geography, so these are the ones I just outlined for you, how those regional chapters sort of go, and intent. There’s also chapters that really focus very highly on service information of a few different types. So those can be something that I call here a highlight, but another way to think of it is a top 10 list, or a top 20 list or a must-see list, or perhaps itineraries.

These are really commonly found at the beginning of books, and some of the guidebook companies will also have itineraries in the beginning of chapter sections, as well. So you might have like the introduction to a region, and then you’ll have some itineraries around that region. So we’ll look at some of the itineraries and their depth, as well. I pulled them some up from Frommer’s because they tend to have itineraries. but these top 10 lists are a slightly different thing. And we’ll also look, I believe I have some pulled up for a Lonely Planet book. But these are very, very different than the content that you see in most of the book. What I was just saying is that these top 10 lists, that you see in the beginning of many guidebooks these days, are very different than a lot of content in the guidebook.

So we talk about how Eyewitness has these glossy pages, these lovely photos and drawings of entire churches and museums and how to navigate them. Now, that is not the norm to have glossy pages in the guidebook. Like I said, they’re usually these very inexpensive, thin pages with black and white print. Perhaps now black and white and I believe Rough Guide also uses some orange for offset colors. But what these top 10 sections look like is that they tend to be, sometimes in the middle but typically in the front, almost like an insert of glossy pages among all the other pages that have beautiful photos and very little information about the places they describe, because this is like the hyperlink on the web, right?

They are essentially linking you to the page where you can go and get real information about that thing, but this part in the front is just like that blog post you would see on usatoday.com or something like that. It’s got “The 12 Most Romantic Places in Italy” or something. And it’s got photos and a small description of each one that says, “Go to page 371 for more information.”

So these top 10 lists, like I said, if you’re only writing a chapter, they wouldn’t be under your purview. But these top 10 lists are very different from a lot of guidebook writing and easier writing, kind of fun to write. But they’re just a very small part of the equation. So the other types of “articles” that you would see in a book setting if you’re writing a whole book, that you would, perhaps, not be super-prepared for are some really heavy service topics like how to do laundry, major festivals and holidays you need to list, currency exchanges and how and where to do it, which most of us don’t even think about these days because we just go to the ATM.

And then there’s also gonna be these more context-oriented chapters that are deep dives on things like religion, history, music, ecology, and these all vary from book to book. It’s been interesting to see how those titles change, as well. Now, another thing that you’ll notice, like I said, is that there’s these description sections that you’ll see on the regional level, but you’ll also see it for cities and other sub-areas like parts of the countryside, like I’m sure Chianti, for instance, would have an introduction. We just have this one for the Amalfi Coast, which is, kind of, an outside of city area.

Now, the other type of article that’s a bit different is something that you could think of as a highlight or a pullout, sometimes people call it a cutout. But there’s these little essays that you’ll see dot either a whole page or a half page and they tend to be in a, sort of, box. And they take a cultural topic, sometimes they’ll take a festival or something like that and they explore it at length in a lot of detail in a way that’s a very different voice than the rest of the text of the guidebook. And in the case of some of these guidebooks that are multi-author like Lonely Planet, those essays might be written by somebody who’s not even writing anything else in the book. They might be written by a completely external writer.

Now, like I said, Lonely Planet is in a little bit of turmoil right now. So whether you can be assigned those at the moment is up for grabs and we’ll see about that later. But you do see those type of things in other guidebooks, as well. And so, in guidebook companies, where there’s more of a pool of writers situation, those things can be up in the pool and you can select among the various options. So the other type, site profile, lodging profile and restaurant profile, we’re gonna look at a lot more detail, I’m gonna pull some of those up for you, and we’re gonna talk about the structure of how those work. So I just wanna double check where I have the slide on that. Okay, great. So, we’ll talk about the structure of how those work a little bit now and we’re also gonna look at them as we dive into some actual words. And I’m sorry that…speaking of words, that the words are being cut off here on the bottom of the page. On my slide, they look fine. So it’s like they’re being cut off by WebinarJam and I apologize for that.

What does the writing on the page look like? We took a look, we took a little spin through Fodor’s description of the Amalfi Coast to give you a little taste. But that was of the descriptions, right? So sometimes the descriptions of whole cities or regions or on the whole country can feel like they’re devolving into clichés. And, yes, in a way, that’s lazy writing, but on the other side, we can also understand. So for instance, somebody that I coach who has been working on about three different guidebooks recently, when she first sat down to work on her book link, the one that she’s doing, she was really struggling with the history section and she was struggling with how she has a page and a half, this is a guidebook page and a half, not a real page and a half, in which to cover the whole political history of a country that’s had a dictator and huge uprisings and all of these different things.

And she had learned so much about it and now she was staring at the page and she just couldn’t figure out and that space had to cover this ridiculously vast topic. And if you were with us yesterday, or rather for our Profile Article Nuts And Bolts webinar, then you heard me talk about how, really, the crux of being a travel writer is figuring out how to do that, how to tell and show something so vast as a person or a place in such a small space. But it’s very difficult when you’re talking about history, we’re only talking about straight facts and straight chronology and crunching that down.

And so, with the descriptions of the whole cities or regions, a way to not be quite so lazy can be to devolve on facts rather than more marketing writing. But then you have to be very clear about how the facts that you’re choosing to present or the descriptive elements you’re choosing to promote, to present tie into the particular reader of the type of guidebook that you’re working on, because guidebooks have conventions, and if somebody is a Lonely Planet user, or a Rough Guide user, or an Eyewitness user, then they have expectations. So you really want to consult previous versions of your book or related titles, for instance, books on other areas in the same region to see, not just what other people have done, but what the expectations that are being set for the reader in terms of how much information of various types they’re getting. How much information is factual, how much information is descriptive, how much information that is service-oriented?

These are really the three masters that you are alternating between as you’re writing a guidebook. Now, in the individual entries, you’ll see particularly, the attraction entries are a little bit longer so this particularly plays in with the hotel, restaurant, and sort of nightlife style entries. You’ll see a very repeatable formula come through, which is that they begin with a very, very vivid visual description. Now, this is because, like I said, most guidebooks don’t have pictures of pretty much anything in there. So you will definitely find that guidebook writing has a lot more sensory detail and visual detail than you might see in a lot of other, particularly magazines which are highly visual, a lot of magazine type writing these days. But that is an uneraseable element of that guidebook, okay?

So, they have this descriptive sentence. And then they might have a sentence that’s, let’s call it, background, or it could be facts, it could be this and has five rooms and three have private on-suite bathrooms and it’s not available during low season, but there’s going to be a very quick shift from that vivid visual description to service information, because that’s really what people come to a guidebook for. So you can think of everything in those entries as an interplay between these three masters of the service, the visual and the history. So that being said, let’s pop over to where I loaded up some things for you and look through a couple different…right there on this one, look through a couple different guidebooks.

So first and foremost, before we get into talking about specific entries, I wanna look at some guidebooks on the table of contents level. So this one is Italy, this is a whole book, and also I’ve got a Rough Guide for you here, and this Rough Guide is the “Rough Guide to Peru.” Okay. So I’ve got two different complete single country books, and I want us to look at these on a table of contents level. So here in the Lonely Planet book, you see we’ve got what’s gonna be, you know, the kind of grandiose, superficial “Welcome to Italy.” But then we’ve got this “Italy’s Top 18.” And I’ll click on this after we go through the rest of table of contents so that you can see what that looks like. But this is gonna be one of those top 10 style things that I was talking about was which may be really visual.

Now, here you’ll see they’ve got a lot of this service information up front, which is of a more casual article style. They’ve got “Need to Know,” “First Time Italy,” “What’s New,” and then “If You Like.” So “If You Like” is like if you like food, go here, here and here. If you like adventure, go here, here and here. And then they have another visual section, “Month by Month,” which is gonna be the top things to do in different months. And then they have itineraries. And then they talk about food, outdoor activity scene. Now we’re getting a little more service information, but they don’t have that really deep service information in Lonely Planet up front. That is gonna be all the way at the back of the book.

So let me show you what that really deep service information looks like in a Lonely Planet section and we can contrast that to what it looks like for the Rough Guides. So, here you’ll see, I’m scrolling through the different regional ones, and then their context-oriented section is called “Understand.” They have “Understand Italy,” “Italy Today,” “History,” “Italian Art and Architecture,” “The Italian Way of Life,” “Italy on Page and Screen,” and “The Italian Table.” So their context still is not gonna be so academic, let’s call it, as it might be in other books. But then this “Survive” section, this is where you as a writer are having to do some really deep research. Okay, they’ve got discount cards, customs regulations, electricity, gay and lesbian travelers, opening hours, the post, how do people send things, toilets, how the toilets work, which is a very relevant topic in Italy, to be honest.

What travelers with disabilities should expect in Italy. Not very much, to be honest, and how to get around. Now, something that you’ll see as we start to go through, and I’m going to do this with the Rough Guide rather than this book, but something that you’ll see as we start to go through is that getting around information is a lot denser than you as the writer might be prepared for. So as the reader of guidebooks, you might remember that they talk about certain things, but you might not be prepared for the fact that you need to talk about every single airline that flies to a place and how many times a week they fly there. You need to find that, and you need to have fact-checking information available for your team, for your editor.

So, let’s just look at how the regional sections are organized in the Lonely Planet context. So here you’ll see that we’ve got Rome and Lazio and the first thing we have here is highlights. So before they give you that description, they give you a highlight reel-type thing like they’re doing in the front of the book. That’s their style. And they’re gonna give you neighborhoods at a glance, and then they’re gonna talk about attractions. Now, what they do in Lonely Planet, which is really different as you see, they talk about all these attractions, and actually some of these things over here are different cities. So we stop at the Vatican Museums in attractions.

And then with Ostia Antica, Tivoli and Cerveteri, we get into different cities that are outside of Rome. So what they’ve done is within each of these attractions, they talk about the hospitality, they talk about the hotels and the food and whatnot that are near each of the attractions. So they use that as a way to split up Rome.

So I just wanna show you quickly, like I said, I wanna show you what that really visual section that they have is like. So here you’ll see big picture, and this picture is actually from Shutterstock. So this picture wasn’t shot specifically for this book. Big picture, little paragraph, and the paragraph is, again, “Once caput mundi (capital of the world), Rome was legendarily spawned by a wolf-suckled boy, grew to be Western Europe’s first superpower, became the spiritual centerpiece of the Christian world and is now the repository of over two millennia of European art and architecture.”

So, again, very broad strokes here on this Top 18. And that’s really what I wanted to show you. But you’ll see they do get into a little…they try to add some character here, so they’re not quite as funny as the book about Yosemite that Artemis was looking at. But they’re trying to get some names here, right? So they tell you it’s a breathing organism studded with secret gardens, sleepy campi, which are squares, well-worn bacari, which are small bars filled with the fizz of prosecco and the sing-song lilt of the Venetians’ local dialect, all right?

So, let’s look over and see how a different guidebook is organized. Let’s look at the Rough Guide. So, starts with a quote from Bill Bryson, and that, you know, gives you a sense of who the user of the Rough Guide is, as well. Bill Bryson’s really about kind of going deep all around the country, traveling overland. So let’s see how they present this. So the Rough Guide, super for usability, the first thing they tell us is not the table of contents, but how the Rough Guide works. So they have it set up in a color-coded way where, if I’m not mistaken, basically along the side of all the pages, they have a little ticker which helps you understand where you are, and they tell you the different types of articles that you’re gonna find. You’re gonna contexts, you’re gonna find basics.

This is that really servicey-type information that we’re talking about. And then you’re gonna find guides and then they show you how these colors work, and they also show you how the colors and numbers correspond to different parts of the country. Now we get into the real contents, okay? Now, they also have a color section, and their color section talks about where to go, when to go and things not to miss.

So this is very similar to how Lonely Planet’s is, but it’s less, I would say it’s kind of less marketing language-oriented. You’ll see they also use these not as pages, but as pre-pages because they really think of this as a real book. And their book starts with the basics. It starts with costs, money and banks, insurance, communications: post, phones and internet, senior travelers, opening hours and festivals, national parks and reserves. It starts with this. So this also tells you what Rough Guides thinks of as important. They think of that service information is paramount rather than “I want to show you pretty things,” which you could kind of say was the onus of the other book that we looked at.

Now, how do they organize a regional area? So here they’ve got Lima. Okay, so they start with highlights and then they have this arrival, information and getting around, then they get into a combination, what’s in the center, what’s in the suburbs, eating, drinking, nightlife. Okay. And then shopping and so on and some day trips. So, I wanna show you guys, like I said, this arrival information, which is a lot denser than you might expect. So here is what the highlights look like for them. So these highlights are gonna be very, very short and they’re gonna direct you to the appropriate page, and then we get into… The pages are cut off. So then we’ve actually sadly skipped over the how to get around information, which is sad because I know that I showed it in the original webinar, but now it’s gone.

So, what we’ve gotten into here is this is the Rough Guides version of that city description that we talked about. Now, you’ll see that this is both long because we’ve skipped two pages in here, and it’s very historical and very detailed, which is not what we saw in that Fodor’s introduction, okay? So you can see it’s really densely talking about the main plazas, once attractive meeting places are now thick with pickpockets, exhaust fumes and not infrequently, riot police. So this goes back to that point I was telling you that these are not going to always be positive. They’re trying to paint a picture that inspires an appropriate amount of wariness for the traveler, but to the tone of voice that is expected by the travelers who read these books. And for Rough Guide, like I said, a lot of service information is expected.

So here is an example of how they blend together that history and service information. So they’re talking about the 17th century, but they’re gonna show you how that ties into today. So, they talk about how the most prosperous era for Lima was the 17th Century, and they talk about the population, and what percent was Spanish and what percent was “Indian” or other ethnic origin. And they say, “The center of Lima was crowded with shops and stalls selling silks and fancy furniture from as far afield as China. Even these days, it’s not hard to imagine what Lima must have been like as a substantial section of the colonial city is still preserved. Many of its streets and larger regular blocks are overhung by ornate wooden balconies in elaborate Baroque facades.”

So, here they’re giving you a lot of history, but not in such an academic way where they’re stuck in the past. They’re tying it into today. And then, I did find the arrival information so we’ll have a look here. So I just wanted to show you this, because, like I said, it’s a lot denser than you might think about. So they’ve got information like taxis, how to book them, how much they might cost, unofficial taxis, how to tell a taxi is unofficial or official. And then as you’ll see, they get into buses, again, they tell you specifically which operators, they tell you specifically which streets, exactly where to pick it up to get from the airport, but then what you might not necessarily think about if it comes…we’re missing the page. So what I wanted to tell you that you might not necessarily think about is that, you’re going to have to say the particular airlines that travel to a place and their schedule, and there are ways to do this online, you can ask at the airport, but this is the kind of level of research, of specifically note taking, that it’s good to know before you get into doing a guidebook that you’re gonna be writing those sort of things, because often they’re are a lot easier to get on the ground while you’re there and also just to get those sections quickly written up.

So let’s depart from the whole books and look a little bit more about chapters. So this is Frommer’s, and this is an introduction to Italy as a whole place. Now, this is going to feel in many ways more grandiose and superficial than the Amalfi Coast one because they’re looking at a whole country. But I wanna show you a couple different of these introductions by different companies so that you can see how they can change, so you can see what the options are. So I’ll just read you the first paragraph, from this one which is from Frommer’s and it’s about Italy. So they say, “Just hear the word ‘Italy’ and you can already see it. The noble stones of ancient Rome and the Greek temples of Sicily, the wine hills of Piedmont in Tuscany, the ruins of Pompeii and the secret canals and crumbling palaces of Venice. For centuries, visitors have come here looking for their own slice of the good life, and for the most part, they found it.”

Now, you’ll see that here, it’s also sweeping, but somehow it doesn’t feel quite as marketing languagey as the other. There’s not so much hyperbole. They do say “visitors have come looking for their own slice of the good life, and for the most part have found it,” which is a lot truer than blanket statement that “it’s arguably the most romantic stretch of coastline on Earth,” according to who, right? So, you could definitely say that here, there’s more balance. You’ll see immediately in the next paragraph they start to throw in some details. They drop names of artists, they drop actual dates, they talk about the cultures that have been through here. So let’s talk about what we could think of as the further side of the spectrum. Let’s look at the introduction to Rome from Lonely Planet’s viewpoint.

Now, here, this introduction to Rome similar to what we saw in the Peru Rough Guide that we looked at, is going to include a decent, but perhaps not as decent as you might think, bit of history. Okay, so this is their whole instruction to Rome. So it starts with, “A heady mix of haunting ruins, awe-inspiring art and vibrant street life, Italy’s hot-blooded capital is one of the world’s most romantic and inspiring cities.” Now, I wouldn’t say that any of that’s inaccurate, and if you just have one sentence, that certainly gives a take on Rome.

But let’s see what they do with this other part. They’re touching on history, art, the lifestyle and food. So here’s what they have to say about history. “The result of 3,000 years,” a random big number, “of ad hoc urban development, Rome cityscape is an exhilarating spectacle. Ancient icons such as the Colosseum, Roman Forum and Pantheon recall the city’s golden age as caput mundi (capital of the world), while it’s many monumental basilicas testify to its historic role as the seat of the Catholic Church. Lording it over the skyline, St. Peter’s Basilica is the Vatican’s epic showpiece church, a towering masterpiece of Renaissance architecture. Elsewhere, ornate piazzas and showy fountains add a baroque flourish to the city’s captivating streets.”

Now, I would not say that this gives me a huge sense of the history of Rome. It, kind of, gives me a sense of what you’ll see in Rome and maybe vaguely where it’s from, but I would not say that this gives me a huge sense of the history, and likewise for the artistic riches. So these three that I kind of arranged for you, Frommer’s, Fodor’s and Lonely Planet, you could say are kind of a spectrum of how much detail is actually present in these introductions. So, I promised I would show you a little bit of an itinerary as well as these tend to play into most guidebooks. And it’s important also here to know, because it translates to your research, what is gonna be expected in that itinerary, even.

So this itinerary basically bases itself upon the one-week itinerary and then stretches it out to two weeks. So, let’s just look at one day here. So for Naples, they say, “Leave Rome as early as you can so that you can take in the major attractions of Naples, the ‘capital of southern Italy.’ This is an unparalleled collection of ancient artifacts,” or, “There is,” sorry, “at the Museo Archeologico Nazionale, plus Titians and Caravaggios at the Museo e Gallerie Nazionale di Capodimonte. After dark, wander Spaccanapoli–the old center’s main east-west thoroughfare–and then make a date with a pizzeria: Neapolitans stake a reasonable claim that pizza was invented here. After dinner, wander the Mergellina boardwalk to enjoy the breezes and views of the Bay of Naples. Stay overnight in Naples, the first of three nights based here.”

Now, even though this is one paragraph, and even though they have included some information telling us what we’re gonna see, ancient artifacts, art, they have given us a whole, very clear day. You take the train in the morning, you do this, they haven’t necessarily told us where to eat lunch specifically, but they’ve told us where to eat dinner, they even told us where to go for a walk. So in this one paragraph with a very earnest level of detail, they’ve told us what to do in one day in Naples. So as you are out doing your research, if you have itineraries like this that you need to do, you need to be thinking of what is conceivable to do in a day, and what somebody on a tight schedule should be doing. And, like I said, there’s still service here, right? So when they talk about, I don’t know if it’s really your “best-preserved Roman remains.” But when they talk about Pompeii, they say, “Be sure to pack water and lunch, because onsite services aren’t great.”

So they include even here just in this itinerary service information, because that’s really what we’re focusing on. So let’s get into looking at, and then we’ll bring our replay webinar to a close. Let’s get into looking at these three main types of entries that I told you about, which are the attraction entry, the accommodation entry, and the restaurant entry. So, this is an interesting combination entry here, because they talk about Vatican City, which is technically a country, so they’re not just talking about the Vatican museums here, for instance, they’re also talking about St. Peter’s Square as well as how to get an audience with the pope.

So you’ll see in here, in particular, this part that I’m mousing over, “St. Peter’s Warning”…oops, come back. But they’ve got a heady amount of service in here. They’ve got one paragraph specifically dedicated to how to dress when you go there because, this is important, because they won’t let you in if you are showing too much skin, which is very accurate, okay?

So, but then you’ll notice that this entry is set up very differently to a lot of the service, for a lot of the introduction information we read before. They very specifically highlight certain things they wanna draw your attention to, and the paragraphs are long, the paragraphs are a bit dense. And when I say “dense,” let me show you a little bit of the level of detail that they’ve got here now that we’re on this attraction level entry. So they say, “The world’s smallest sovereign state, Vatican City is a truly tiny territory comprising little more than St. Peter’s and the walled headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church.

There are no border controls, of course, though the city-state’s 800 inhabitants {essentially clergymen and Swiss Guards) have their own radio station, daily newspaper, tax-free pharmacy, petrol pumps, post service and head of state, the pope. The pope has always exercised a high degree of political independence from the rest of Italy in the form of the medieval Papal States, and this independence was formalized by the 1929 Lateran Treaty between Pope Pius…” I’m horrible with Roman numbers, “XI and the Italian government to create the Vatican.

The city is still protected by the flamboyantly uniformed (some say by Michelangelo) Swiss Guards, a tradition dating from the days when the Swiss, known as brave soldiers, were often hired out as mercenaries for former armies.” So in this chunk of text, we’ve got a lot of specific details. The number of inhabitants, the year that the independence was formalized, but also things like all of the stuff that they have in Vatican City that you wouldn’t expect, a radio station, and a daily newspaper, a pharmacy, and so on. So we start to get really dense, and also dense about things that you might think that the average person doesn’t need to know, but that add flavor.

So in the example that Artemis was talking about before about the Yosemite Moon Guide, where the writer had quite a bit of humor, that goes to the tone of that book, right? Frommer’s likes to be really informative, really dense, and so that’s what they have here. In other types of books, this might have more observation on the part of the writer about the place rather than straight history. So, this one, I just wanna show you. I’m not gonna read it. This is a shorter one, but this really is about one piazza, so this is the level of information that they’re giving you about one piazza as an attraction guide, okay? So the attractions are really almost little stars of the show themselves in terms of these articles. They tend to be the longer articles, and that’s where you get to include a lot of this history that you might not get to include, here’s another one we can just go over. A lot of history that you might not get to include on the actual history page when you’re just talking about the history. For instance, here they talk about Roman burials, and they talk about the type of stone that is native to that area and why that’s allowed us to have these catacombs.

Okay. But here, I also just pulled this one up because, for instance, here, you’ll see that a good bit of this is just straight service, which is very specific, which bus you take from which stop to which stop, how many run during daylight hours, that there’s bumps on the cobblestones, exactly where to get off, exactly how far to walk. And a note that the bus is unreliable. So let’s get into these last two types. So we’ve got the accommodation and the restaurant listing. So here, I’ve got the restaurant listing for you guys.

So this is, you’ll see, maybe 50 words, maybe less, maybe a little bit more. But this is really common for a restaurant listing. So let’s see how it follows the formula. “For a taste of Tuscany in Rome, consider lunch or decadent aperitivi at his Florentine prosciutteria (or salami shop). Made-to-measure taglieri (wooden chopping boards) come loaded with different cold cuts, cheeses, fruit and veg and are best devoured over a glass of Brunello di Montalcino or Chianti Classico. Bread comes in peppermint-green saucepans and dozens of hams and salami dangle overhead. Well-stuffed panini, too, to eat in or take away. Clear your own table before leaving.”

So what have we got here? We’ve got…they’re kind of throwing in some Italian words to set the scene, but then they come with the description. They tell you, you get this wooden cutting board that’s loaded with all these things and you should drink it with this glass, and they tell you the color of the saucepan and the things are dangling overhead. So this is a mix of service and description, and then we’ve got some very specific service here at the end, “Clear your own table before leaving.”

So in this small space, they’ve really focused on using description to fulfill service, both at the same time, but while creating very much a visual of what you would expect in this location. Now, let’s look at this combination one, and this one is a bit different. I noted in the sadly lost recording that we had this originally, that I am not sure if this important information and quick description that we see down here, which are quite different than this bit above the map, I’m not sure if those would be in the guidebook.

So let’s look at this first part that they have the top and look at that on its own first. They say, “This friendly boutique B&B makes for an attractive home away from home in the heart of the elegant Prati district, a single metro stop from the Vatican. It has five bright, playfully decorated rooms–think shimmering rainbow wallpaper, lilac accents and designer bathrooms–and a small breakfast area.”

Now, they’ve got some pretty intense service information down here, and I think this is in part because you actually have the ability to book this. So I think that some of this comes from booking.com. So this description where they say it’s on the first floor of an elegant building and it’s five minutes from the Vatican, you’ll see that this is really restating what they have above.

So let’s take this as what would be in the actual guidebook. So we’ve got that scene setting, right, to the point where they tell us that there’s shimmering rainbow wallpaper. We’ve also got that service. They’ve got five rooms, if I’m not mistaken, or they don’t tell you, oh, five rooms, and it’s a single metro stop from the Vatican, and the area that it is in is an elegant district and this is an attractive B&B. And you think not just an attractive B&B, but an attractive B&B for Rome and friendly for Rome.

So they accomplish all of that in this area specifically through the use of these really punchy, descriptive terms here like “lilac accents” and “designer bathrooms,” okay? So, I’m gonna pop back over to the slides. So what I wanted you guys to see as we looked at those, obviously, is to see these things in vivo, as we say in Italy, to see them live, but also to get a sense of how the articles that you’re writing can change really dramatically from section to section of the guidebook, and also from guidebook publisher to guidebook publisher, but especially from section to section of the guidebook. But some things to think about if you have embarked on, if you’re thinking about embarking on this journey are that if you’re writing an entire book, you’re probably gonna be writing the later chapters in the book, or sorry, you’re gonna be researching later chapters of the book while you’re writing earlier ones.

So that means that you can be doing both of these things at the same time, which, actually, creates a really nice feedback loop which means that you’re learning how the notes that you tuck need to be better or need to be different or could be better organized to help you with your writing. But the hope in this series of webinars that we’ve done is that you can get a better sense of what this would look like for you if you did it, and be better prepared if you go into it. So if you’re already working on a guidebook, if you’re thinking about working on a guidebook, like I said in the first webinar in the series, it’s definitely a surprisingly lucrative and steady gig.

I really recommend it to people these days, perhaps not a lot with Lonely Planet, but Moon is really excellent and they’re looking for like 20 different guidebooks right now. So just don’t forget, you got this contract for like six months or a year. You get this contract for a long time. So take it day by day, and there’s just a series of little, tiny, short articles that you have to write. Don’t worry about writing a whole book.

So thank you guys so much for joining me for the replay. So I hope you guys have a great weekend, and I will catch you next week to talk about interviews. Cheers.

Article Nuts and Bolts: How to Put Together a Quest Piece Transcript

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So this week, I am very excited…if this slide will go forward, there it goes…to talk to you guys about quest pieces. This is something that among journalists, among people who have worked for years for magazines or newspapers is very commonly discussed, it’s very commonly done. It’s almost, in fact, a bit of a default setting in terms of what type of article to write. But I very rarely see you guys coming to me with ideas or pitches for quest pieces.

So I’m really excited to talk to all of you guys about this, and it’s interesting as always on our webinars and everything we do, there’s definitely more female writers in the world, one could say, but also there seem to be more female travel writers. And I find, and I’m curious if any you guys feel like this as well, that a lot of the quest pieces that I see, that I see out there, a lot of people that I know right them, tend to be written by men.

This is really interesting and I was thinking a bit before the webinar if I could try to figure out some of the things that flow into this. But you’ll notice that when I pull up the examples later, I pulled up a few different examples and they’re quite long pieces, so I don’t know how many of them were gonna get to. But there’s two in particular that I wanna show you that are both by the same gentleman, and they’re both for “AFAR.” And I have another friend who writes for “AFAR” who writes this quest pieces a lot.

And I definitely found as I was going around at least the ones that know of off the top of my head, the ones that have been recommended to me by other editors that they use when they teach, they’re often written by men. And I think that part of it might come down to a lot of the things that I see with a lot of the folks that I coach at the workshops who are female, in terms of things that they aren’t sure that they’re qualified enough around pitching. There’s a stat out there that I’m sure many of you have seen that says that women will only apply for a job if they’re qualified for 100% of the things listed in the job description. But men will apply when they’re qualified for something like 30% or 60% of the things in the job description.

So how does that translate to quest pieces? Because the quest piece is inherently loaded with uncertainty. So it seems like we’ve got everybody in the room now, so I’m gonna dive into the slides. 

So first and foremost, we’re gonna talk about why this quest concept is so important. I mentioned at the top of the call that quests are something that are very commonly done, they’re very commonly done in magazines and newspapers, and have been for a long time. And I wanna dig into a little bit of why that is. Why is it that this is something that resonates so much that you will see it in a lot of magazines and a lot of newspapers?

So after that, we’re gonna talk about the structure, not just of our quest article, but also of the quest that we as a writer goes on in our research to get to the elements that will go in to that article. And you’ll notice as we look at the examples, which is the third part of the call today, that the pieces that you’re gonna look at might feel a little bit like what we’re gonna talk about next week, which is a diary style piece.

It really seems in a way like the writer was just kinda telling you, “I went here, I did this, I did this, and then that, you know, this happened so then I did this.” It really has this feeling almost if they’re just narrating to you what happened in their day or in their journey. But these quest pieces are different than that more diary style piece because of what they don’t include, because of the focus on the driving force of the piece, which is the quest. And then we’re gonna talk a little bit about how to pitch these.

Yes, Jade has mentioned the piece where somebody retraced Odysseus’s journey. And I’ve read a piece and I almost thought about using it today but it’s extra, extra long, but I think that the one Jade is referring to is a different piece.

But there’s a piece from “The New York Times” in a which Matt Gross who used to be Frugal Traveler went around the islands that Odysseus went to on his way back, but he did it slightly differently. He essentially started where Odysseus started, and tried to just kinda follow the boats, and follow the ferries and whatever schedule a way he could to get home. So that’s the one “Odysseus” piece I know that’s more recent.

Some of the folks have mentioned they see these pieces in the food writing as well. Someone typed A, but I’m not quite sure what means. So I’ll take a second as we get into the webinar to expand on what I mean when I say quest since this seems like something that a lot of you guys aren’t so familiar with what I mean when I say that piece.

So again, when I say quest…somebody had mentioned this idea of the Odysseus journey, of the mythological quest. That journey that Odysseus had is different than a lot of the quest pieces that we’re gonna look at today because it’s a return, right? He was trying to find his way home. He wasn’t out looking for something.

So I wanna reframe a little bit when we say quest, however, this is idea of the search. So think rather than Odysseus, let’s think a little bit more about the idea of “Jason and the Argonauts.” And here is that other “Odysseus” piece that I mentioned, by the way, from the “The New York Times.” So rather than Odysseus who’s trying to figure out how to get home, instead of let’s think about “Jason and the Argonauts” on his search for the Golden Fleece.

So when we think about that, that brings to mind the idea that you set out for something, you think you know where it is, and you might have a hard time getting to where you think it is. And then when you get there it often isn’t what you thought it was going to be in the first place, and then there’s something else perhaps that’s better, maybe that you’re more interested in, or it becomes more important than the thing that you set out to find. And that’s often what you come home with.

Now I mentioned “Jason and the Argonauts,” but then I set this out in terms where I think you can even liken what I just talked about to going shopping for a dress. My sister is getting married this Sunday, and I remember when I went out looking for dresses for this wedding and another we had to go to. Just shopping for a dress to wear to an occasion like your sister’s wedding, or taking your child to get their outfits for their first day of school, that is also a quest.

When you go out and you have a goal but you know, or find out along the way, that that goal isn’t gonna work how you thought it was gonna work. That the thing you were looking for maybe isn’t as important as you thought it was, maybe it doesn’t matter as much, maybe that’s not really the thing that you want. What you really need or what you really want is something else, but you have to go on that quest to figure out that what you want is different. If you don’t leave your house, if you don’t leave the door, if you don’t start fact-finding, if you don’t try some examples, then you never realize what it is that you actually need.

And I know it’s a little meta that I was just talking about our one-on-one coaching and that’s kind of what we also do on our one-on-one coaching, but that’s the whole idea, right, that these quests exist in so many different contexts. And that’s one of the reasons why there’s such fantastically easy pieces to pitch and to conceive rather before you even write the pitch, just to come up with.

In the conference that I’m at here, Spud Hilton, who’s the editor of “The San Francisco Chronicle,” mentioned this really funny thing what happened on Twitter was that he…I don’t know if he had just gotten a pitch about Pamplona and the bulls, but he went on Twitter kind of ranting about “Why did everybody wanna do stories about Pamplona about the running of the bulls? Can somebody please pitch me a story about Pamplona that doesn’t have bulls in it?

And everybody was like “Oh that’s so funny. Oh, that’s a good idea.” And you know what he said? Nobody ever sent him that pitch. He’s still waiting. Well, he can’t publish that stuff anymore because they don’t cover international in the “Chronicle” anymore. But he said nobody ever sent him a single pitch on finding what there is to do that is interesting in Pamplona besides the running of the bulls.

It’s so basic and a lot of these quest pieces are very basic types of things that we are all doing already when we travel. You know, you might go to Venice and be looking for the place that served the original spritz, this is now a very common cocktail drink but originated in Venice where they had their own special type of aperitivo where they drink the spritz. You might be in Venice looking for how to take a boat trip that’s not a gondola, how do you get on one of these luxury sort of private boats that go around the city, they go on the outside places where the gondolas can’t go because the water is choppy?

You might be looking to find who’s the oldest family that makes the gondolas? Making the gondola is a very sort of specialized profession, they can only make a certain number every year, they have to use a certain type of wood, just in one city there’s innumerable quest that you can do. Sometimes the quest is even something as simple, and you know, every man as you stayed somewhere that place didn’t work out, and now you’re in the middle of the city during a big holiday and you need to find somebody else to take you in. And you ask around and you end up staying with the brother of the bartender in the bar that you went to and so on and so forth.

So these quests can have so many different avenues, and that is part of why they matter as stories. Because universality in specificity, so something that everyone can relate to and something that only you experienced, is necessary for any type of first-person and really any narrative piece and really any piece where you’re exercising an opinion. Which quite honestly is every travel piece you write, because you are the curator of what information you include. So you need to have universality, you need to take what you experienced, what you saw, what you think is interesting, and make that matter to a wider audience. And quests makes that so easy because everyone has had a quest. Most people have even had some kind of quest that they’ve gone on the same day that they read your story.

I have talked before, maybe not on this webinar but in some conference talks that I do, about how one of my favorite things to do in a foreign country is errands. I love to run errands in foreign countries because they never work like you think they’re gonna work, they never work like they work at home. But as you try to find, you know, a package of tissues, as you try to find something really random you need for your apartment like a stapler or something like this, or as you try to find a place to print a copy of your passport for the customs people, you learn things about how the culture that you’re in works that you never would have had the occasion to know otherwise just going about your normal business.

So even something as simple as trying to find toothpaste in Italy can turn into a process because there is no CVS, there’s no central place where all those things are sold. They might have toothpaste in a grocery store, they might have toothpaste in the pharmacy, they might have toothpaste in the erborista, which is a type of pharmacy that specializes in herbal remedies, but you don’t know which one it is, and it depends which town you are in. And maybe they don’t even have it in any of those places, and they only have it in the tobacco area, which is where they sell tobacco and lottery tickets and things like that.

So when you travel, you can find quest stories in the smallest experiences, absolutely smallest experiences, but part of it is knowing what look for. And so one of the reasons…like I said, quest stories matters because they’re universal, but one of the reasons they matter to us as travel writers is because we encounter them all the time. Trying to buy a train ticket in France, right, these are things that happen to us and we learn a lesson from them, and we think, okay, I should write a story about this, but we automatically think of writing a service article.

We think of telling people how to do it, we don’t think of telling them the story of how we learn how to do it. So if we need to present these experiences that we have in a way that’s not just service, it’s not how to, it’s not a blog post of five ways to do this, or five things I learned in this place, we have to do it with effective storytelling. So I’ve done a whole webinar on storytelling before, especially in the feature format, and I just pulled a couple slides from that, because I wanna remind those of you who are there, because this webinar was sometime last fall, and also catch up those of you who weren’t on what storytelling consists of.

So what I’m going to tell you this five Cs is a way to think of storytelling. There’s a lot of different frameworks people have that they apply in storytelling. I’m gonna show you a few different ones, because sometimes one of them makes sense to you and another one doesn’t. I wanna make sure that we all get on the same page with this. So this idea of the five Cs though…take a screenshot of this or jot this down or something if you can.

This is the really, really easy simplistic way that I like to teach people because it’s easy to remember. I learned this from a friend of mine who is a documentary filmmaker. So he talked of the five Cs as the current state, the conflict, the climax, the consequences, and the conclusion. Now, I’ll tell you something interesting about this, which you’re gonna see play out in the slides we’re gonna look at in a second, that in the most stories that most of us would ever write, the consequences and the conclusion are very, brief. Often they’re so brief people just forget to put them in there, but they need to be there, but they’re very brief, this is usually like the last paragraph.

So in a session that I was in yesterday at the conference that I’m at, there was a not complete enough to really make sense to people who hadn’t covered this before, attempt to look at how to use fiction techniques in your travel writing. And one of the issues with the session, in my estimation, was that the examples that she was using were not narrative stories. She was using these essays to teach this class about fiction techniques and narrative. So what happened was that nobody could find the climax, and there was almost no conflict. So these are two things that happen really frequently in travel writing, especially for folks who are writing online, or they’re writing, you know, essays, or they’ve asked for their own blog, or maybe for some type of print publication, or perhaps you’re writing more of a piece that’s, let’s call it, like a Wikipedia nature. It’s more of an explainer piece.

It seems like some of you have some fiction background so that’s great. So what I wanted to say is about this kind of watch out for issue is that it’s very common in a lot of the types of writing that travel writers gravitate to or that a lot of people are already doing to miss out on this conflict and climax. And this is why I am so excited to talk to you about quest pieces today, because quest pieces automatically built in, you cannot miss them, have conflicts and climax.

So what’s the climax of the quest piece? Is when you find the thing, or you realize you’re never gonna find the thing, it’s one of those two. Whatever you’ve set out to find either you do it or you don’t, and there’s that moment where you succeed or you have the horrifying realization that it’s just never gonna happen right. So that is the automatic climax, it’s built in. You cannot write a quest piece and fail to have a climax. It’s just not possible. That moment of success or abject failure, it is part of the piece, okay. Now, the nice thing about quest pieces is that they also have automatic conflict. So what I mean by that…we’ll talk a bit more about what conflict means a little later in the webinar today.

But when I say they have automatic conflict, what I mean is those step that I mentioned along the way where you think you’re looking for one thing and maybe you realize that’s not the thing that you need to find to achieve your greater overall objective, or you start looking in one place for that thing, and realize that its absolutely not the place to look for the thing you’re trying to find and, you need to go somewhere else entirely. Maybe you even need to get on another.

Kirsten had an interesting comment over here that related to the webinar and the newsletter that I did before today’s call. Which is that the hardest part is finding markets for these more essay-like than service-y pieces. It’s really important as I’m talking about these quest pieces to not think of these as essay type pieces, okay. An essay is a very specific writing style, it’s a very specific piece, there’s some really, really great instructional texts out there on how to write essays, and there’s anthologies of essays. And essays are both tricky pieces to write, and tricky pieces to place. We did a whole webinar on this in the fall.

But what I’m talking about right now is a narrative feature, and narrative features have so many homes I can’t even tell you. I’m always surprised when we put magazines into the Travel Magazine Database, and the only thing that they accept from freelancers is features, and all of their features are open to freelancers. So there are just hundreds, thousands of places where you can place narrative features. You just never run out of them. And a lot of them happen to be in airline magazines that take all of their features from freelancers, and they pay a dollar a word. So there’s tons and tons of homes for these stories, and we’ll talk about that a little bit later when we talk about pitching them.

So again, the five Cs: current state, conflict, climax, consequences, conclusion. With quest pieces, you have these ones automatically built in. Now, this current state, you can think of it as the background information. But what I’m gonna show you is that that setup portion of your story, also known as the lead, more typical journalistic parlance, but more in a narrative way we can call this setup or the background. In quest pieces that’s also much easier than in a lot of other types of articles, particularly a lot of narrative articles.

So I just wanna zoom through them quickly, a couple of these diagrams of what stories look like. And I told you these are pulled from another webinar that I did, which is explicitly on story structure that we have in the webinar library. But I do love these because they show you how complicated stories can be, as well as how easy they can be. So this one is great because it just says every single thing that happens in the story. And this level of detail, you can do this even with a story that takes place over 400 words. We did one of these breakdowns in the class yesterday. Even with a really short story, you can find all of these different things. And the person who taught that class said something really interesting and I wanted to share with you guys.

She said, “The more of these elements…” and I’m gonna tell you more about the elements in a bit. But it’s like action, dialogue, conflict, things like this. She said, “Your story only gets better the more of these elements you throw into it.” And that seems weird, right, because you’ve probably heard me say, “Oh my God, do not clutter your pitches.” Spud Hilton was complaining yesterday, “Do not send me 900-word pitches, I don’t know what to do with that.”

I always tell you to keep your pitches really short, to be really focused on what your story is. And then we get the assignment you have a word count that you need to follow then. So how can you be stuffing all of this different stuff in there? Because what folks often try to stuff their pieces and their pitches with is actually…let’s go back a second. It’s actually current state, it’s actually background information, it’s actually explaining what is going on with something.

It’s not conflicts, problems, risks, dangers, crises, uncertainty, resolution, climax…it’s not all of these things, okay. But the more of these that you can put in, the more small scenes that you have going on the better. I’m gonna use an example that’s used a lot, but I’m using it only for a specific reason. So the book “Eat Pray Love,” which I’m sure most of you if not have not read are familiar with at least in concept. The book “Eat Pray Love” was mentioned by somebody who I really, really respect who has, in fact, written literally the book on how to plot your work of fiction. She said, “Eat Pray Love,” to her, is the [inaudible 00:26:00] ultra example of plotting. And part of that is because at the very beginning Elizabeth Gilbert outlines that she has separated her story into something like 133 different scenes or chapters to line up with the number of prayer beads on a necklace. I suppose from India, because that’s.

And Paula Munier…I’m gonna write that name because her name is spelled a little weird. It’s Paula Munier, I think it’s actually spelled like that. She wrote a book, I believe, called “Plot Perfect.” She said, “That division, that focus on forcing oneself into having that many scenes is the way you need to go about a book.” And it’s also the way we need to go about our narrative stories, and we also need to have a lot of scenes, but they just become shorter. So let’s look at some more simplified versions of this. So I talked about the current state, here they call it setting your background, then the conflict, people also call that rising action. The climax, we talked about that. Falling action, that’s another word for this consequences that I talked about, and then resolution that’s another word for conclusion.

So this is a very simple idea looking at how tension changes in your story. Every time you see these things that move up, what the line is really measuring is tension. And this is something that when people write travel stories there tend to be very little of, and some of that, like I said early on we were talking about the kind of division between men and women writing quest pieces, some of that happens because people don’t want to depict themselves as failing, they don’t want to depict negative aspects of the destination.

There’s a lot of reasons that people don’t introduce tension into their travel stories, but stories must have a rise and fall of tension, that is paramount. But like I said, this very metronomic split between the different parts of the story isn’t very accurate. Things tend to be more built on this front end with the climax and just a little bit at the end. I actually think, like I said, that it’s pushed even further over. So some other examples like this one I like, it shows you how the “third act” or the end is really where all of these things happen: the climax, the consequences, and the conclusion. And you’ve got that setup over here and all this conflict in the middle. So for those of you who are more familiar with this three-act structure, that’s what this looks at.

We’re going to talk about having three different portions of your story later, and I wanna make it clear that I’m not…when I talk about this three different portions of the story, I’m not talking about those as the three different acts. The three portions of your story that we’re gonna talk about are these three dots that you see on here, there’s three different things that happen in the middle. So I’ve just got a couple more graphics for those of you who haven’t quite found the one that fits you.

This one, we may or may not all be familiar with. This is Harry Potter, and this over here shows the tension as it goes up and down throughout the book. And I wanted to show you this because it’s really important to see that every scene can also take the tension up and down, okay. It’s not something that just happens like the one that we saw over here. It’s not something that just happens on a constant rise. The tension will go up and down within each scene itself as well. Here’s another way to see that, and I think I’ve got one more.

So this shows that again, so really we have a basic incident, we start somewhere and then everything changes, there’s an obstacle. I wanted to show you this one because when you are plotting out your stories that you’re gonna write as quest pieces or that you might think about pitching as quest pieces, as the case may be, those points that we’re gonna talk about you need to focus on the obstacle. That’s how you choose what to include when you’re looking at, okay, I went here, I did this, I did that. Which one of those stops do I include? They’re the ones where there was an issue, where it wasn’t necessarily clear if you were gonna get what you wanted, because that is what makes the tension rise, the tension fall, the tension rise, tension fall. That’s how you pick the stops that you include.

So let’s back up from the specifics of story structure to talk about the types of quests that you can embark on. So I mentioned a couple of these different varieties earlier, and some other folks also mentioned some. That there’s quests that might not take you out explicitly in search of something new, but might be something like trying to get home, like the classic “Odysseus” quest. Where it seems like it should be just a simple journey…nothing is ever as it seems, right? So that is a type of quest but it’s a very specific type of quest.

A much more common quest that you’ll see, is actually the second one that I put on the here, that I’ve called the search for excellence. So I’m trying to remember who it was exactly but someone mentioned earlier…I wanna say it was Stephanie. I’m not sure if she’s on the call today. But somebody mentioned earlier that they see…Stacy said she sees these types of pieces frequently in food writing. And with food writing I see that there almost too are men, they’re almost always this search for excellence type. So this is like the classic Anthony Bourdain or Andrew Zimmern that does “Bizarre Foods.”

This is when somebody has gone somewhere and wants to find, you know, the best green chili enchilada or whatever it is. They’re on the hunt for the most quintessential Kalua pig that speaks to, you know, the Hawaiian culture of doing the whole pig roast. They wanna find the one exemplar that stands for the whole, the one that is just the absolute best. And if you think about it, you’re often already doing this because you’re probably going somewhere trying to figure out what you wanna write about, what story you wanna do specifically, or maybe you’re just doing a food piece and you need to talk about X, Y, and Z. So you can have a piece where you’re doing a round-up of the best five blah, blah, in a place and then also do five different quest pieces talking about the different things you tried to figure out what you were gonna finally include for that one. So that’s this search for excellence style.

But there’s often this search of discovery as well, and that’s why I put this first because it’s kind of like a wishy one, but it’s something that we all do and we can all write about it. So another way to frame the search for discovery or familiarity is to say that it’s a search for as a sense of place. So we’ve all gone somewhere for the first time, or we don’t know about that place, or we don’t necessarily know what story we’re writing, but we’re there just trying to figure out what is this place about. What stories can or should I even be writing about that destination? And that’s this search of discovery, and so you can think of it like search of discovery, you can also think of it as searching for a sense of place, that’s another way to caption it, okay.

Now, the other one, like we said, this Odysseus type is this “in a bind, need a solution,” so this can also be, you know, when your passport’s gotten stolen and you’re in a country where you don’t speak the language, that’s the kind of thing that can be a quest. And that flows right into, is something possible? So sometimes these guys, you know, go together, or sometimes the, “Can I get out of the country?” is a something possible one, but you’re also in a bind and you need a solution. But sometimes “is something possible” can be a search for excellence. Is it possible to find a cocktail bar where the baristas create every single ingredient by hand on site? You know, that place would probably be very excellent, but your search for is it possible.

Okay, so these are for main types of quests, and something that I wanted to tell you that I didn’t have in the slides because I just found out about this in the session that I was in yesterday on elements of fiction and nonfiction, is that there are seven main plot types. This comes from a book called “The Seven Basic Plots” by Christopher Booker. And in order of the oldest in time, like the ones that you see in the oldest stories from thousands and thousands of years ago, they were in the oral tradition or that were painted on the sides of caves.

Here’s the order of the oldest stories. So the first one, the oldest story, is overcoming the monster. This is, you know, a “Harry Potter,” a “Star Wars,” always “James Bond,” any sort of a hero against a force of evil. And the second oldest story in the world is rags to riches.” And the third oldest is the quest.” But you know what I found really interesting about this, is that if you think about it, overcoming the monster, that inherently is also a quest. And rags to riches where, you know, the example of “Aladdin” or “Cinderella,” “Great Expectations,” “Jane Eyre,” things like that, it’s also somebody who sets out to have a better life for themselves.

So basically, all the oldest type of stories in the world, they always come back to this quest element of a journey where the protagonist…which if it’s a first-person story is gonna be you guys, where the protagonist sets out for something encounters obstacles along the way, maybe gets it, maybe doesn’t, but has learned a lot about themselves along that journey.

So how does that play out into what we actually see on the page of the specific structure of the piece? So first and foremost, I told you that the leads in these pieces tend to be quite different. So even though this is a narrative piece that has a story arc and you think ah, well, I can do an in medias res lead, and I’m gonna write that down for those of you who don’t know what I mean by in medias res. That is Latin for something along lines of starting in the middle of things, and that’s where you take a scene from later on in the piece and you put it in the beginning of your piece. And then you stop right before you get to the interesting part, and you tell the reader how you got there.

So Tim Cahill who’s written many, many books, he’s a Founding Editor of “Outside Magazine,” and a fabulous teacher of writing if you even the opportunity to take one of his courses, he says it like this, he says, “Think of a climax, back up 10 minutes, and start your story there.” So that is a very common framework for writing narratives, but in quest pieces, you very rarely see that. If you think about “Jason and the Argonauts” or if you think about “Odysseus,” they never start there. And it’s because, like I said, often that climax is not what you expected in the process.

So quest pieces pretty much always…I didn’t see any exceptions when I was looking at these pieces. Start with why the person is on a quest and what that quest is, they get right to the point. Which is another thing that makes these things so easy for us to write. And then what happens is that we nut graph, which I’ve put on here for those of you who aren’t familiar with that term. That means that usually second paragraph in a story that explains what the story is gonna be about. You have the same thing in your pitch, you put a bit of a lead in your pitch, and then you have a second paragraph where you flesh out what it is you’re gonna include in your piece.

So in the nut graph of the quest pieces, they don’t tell you what the quest is, because they just told you that in the lead. Instead, they tell you why the quest matters, and they usually tell you this on two levels. They tell you both on the outer level, one of the pieces I’m gonna show you for instance. The gentleman goes to Naples in search of a hand-tailored suit. So a suit that’s stitched entirely by hand. So that is his obvious quest, but his deeper quest is to explore this dying Artisanal tradition. But he also tells you why…this isn’t something that anybody can do…why this quest will have conflict, why it’s challenging. And that’s because these people are only advertised by word of mouth, you cannot find them online, you can even find a buzzer with their name on it. There’s no normal way for him to find out about these places, so he has to just go and ask around. And we’re gonna look at that in a second.

So in that nut graph, they are telling you what the obvious outer journey is and the deeper journey, and then they’re also explaining why a journey is required. Why is it even difficult to do this in the first place? Then that the story will go through three key stops and sometimes those can be physical locations, sometimes they can be different attempts. But each of those stops inherently has some uncertainty in the beginning, is this actually gonna be what the person means? And then at the end of that they move on, there’s some sort of transition, either they failed in that stop and they need to try different approach or they’ve gotten something from that stop and they move on to something different. And then, of course, there’s the climax where, like I said before, either they succeed spectacularly or fail miserably and learn from that failure. And then the quest resolves, and then often the hero goes on to another quest, right. All us travels, we’re onto our next piece or next quest.

So what happens though within each of those three stops that I mentioned? Within each stop, there’s background on that stop, just like how in the beginning of the piece itself we don’t kinda pander around with too much artistry or setting the scene, they tell you why this stop is important, why is this a necessary step in achieving the greater goal, okay? And as they say that they’re inherently saying you know, this is the oldest this, or this other guy told me that this is the really the person who knows how to get the best Kalua pig, and so on and so forth. And as I just said, introducing characters is a key part of that introduction to the stop, because what happens is that, like I said, this quest piece automatically includes all of those delightful elements of fiction.

And sadly, I’m looking and I had a slide on the elements of fiction and it looks like I accidentally deleted when I uploaded these. So I’ll recap those in a second before we go into the URL of the story itself. But characters, tension, dialogue, action, suspense, foreshadowing, these are all elements of fiction that are automatically created by this quest. At the beginning of your piece, you say you’re trying to find something, so throughout the piece there’s a suspense, will you find it or not, will you achieve your goal?

And every time there’s an obstacle the reader feels the tension they feel, oh my God, this is not gonna work out. And then you can drop these little hints like, “While this didn’t work, little did I know that tomorrow I would have to face an even tougher challenge.” There’s such easy foreshadowing suspense and tension that you create within these quests. But the second and equally important element or set of elements of fiction that you need to introduce is characters, dialogue, and action. And you introduce each of those within the specifics stops. But then, you also need to transition into the next stage.

So let’s break in…and let me make sure this is the other slide. Let’s break in and take a look at these, I’m going to pull it up on my screen in Firefox, but I’m also going to give you some links. So here is the first one that I want to look at, this is the one I was telling you about, about making the suit in Naples. I’m gonna switch over to screen share that, but you guys can pull it up as well, the link is there in the chat box. All right, great, so let’s look at this. So this is from Tom Downey, and as I was mentioning I’m not sure if you could hear me before or it’s the…somebody said they are not seeing the article. I can’t tell if people are seeing the article or not. I’m gonna include the link again so you can pull it if you’re not seeing on the screen, I see it on my screen so you should see it as well. There you go.

All right, so as I was saying, this article I believe won the Lowell Thomas Award for one of the top travel articles of the year that it came out. It’s a very long piece, so I’m not gonna read all of it to you in the same way that I usually do when I do these “Article Nuts and Bolts” courses because I wanna say it’s probably more than 2,500 words. It’s quite long. So what I wanna do, I’ve given you the link, and I’m going to highlight some of the different elements that we talked about, about the story structure here on the page, okay. So this up here, “What Can Style Say About a Place,” this is the depth so this is kind of the subhead of the story. But the story itself, like I said, it completely hits the ground running.

“I started my hunt for Naples’ artisanal tailors by talking to the city’s taxi drivers. They were so acutely focused on fleecing me. I thought they might unconsciously reveal some local secrets. A working knowledge of strip joints and after-hours clubs is, of course, essential for any self-respecting taxi driver, but why would they know anything about bespoke suiting? Because, I learned after a few rides, many of them hail from the same place such suits are made, the back alleys of the Quartieri Spagnoli. It’s what Neapolitans call a popular, that is working class, district, situated right in the heart of the city.”

Okay, so he gets right into it in the beginning, there’s kind of a little bit of action in terms of him describing the taxi drivers and kind of what they are there like, and the fact that he took a lot of different taxi rides. But he zooms through many taxi rides very quickly to get his first nugget of information. Why is it so hard for him to get this one nugget of information? He explains it’s because, “The tailors don’t solicit customers on the street, or even advertise their wares. Everything is by word of mouth.”

And so his first few taxi conversations yielded nothing, but finally…so there’s a little tension here, right. He says it’s difficult. He tells you he had a little trouble “And finally, he landed a driver who thought of one thing, but…” suspense…”they only make pants.” Where is he gonna get the rest? So then he gives a little more background about why this is so hard. He says, “It’s simple to find stylish international brands but these craftspeople who just makes suits, just makes shirts, or just make ties, their wares are coveted worldwide and you need to get an introduction.”

Okay, so he explains his quest. He’s after a totally new outfit, “Dress pants, a suit, a soft-colored shirt, and a delicately contoured neck tie.” But he’s also in search of a disappearing culture that once animated Naples, a culture of aging artisans who learned their craft as children, long before labor laws made such a thing impossible. A culture in which generations of a single family patronized the same tailor for their suits.”

So then begins at the first address that he had, and again we’ve got some action, and it’s got some tension in it. He went there, he asked somebody, the first guy knew and nothing about a pants-making family. But somebody else shouted from the window above, “The Mola family. Go here and look for the sign.” Now then he goes in and…sorry. I lost the page for a second. Then he goes in, and I can’t tell from this if he’s talking in English with the guy or not. A little bit later he uses a translator. But then he’s interacting with the gentleman who’s going to cut his pants. So he describes what he sees.

So we’re firmly now in the first stage, right? We know what he’s after, we’ve gone there, and now he’s telling us about this person that he’s visiting, why they are the one to go. He talks about how they are known for making their suits. He’s got a quote from the gentleman that talks about his craft. He explains how the curve at the opening for the legs needs to be a certain way, “You need to see the light, you need to see the shape,” okay.

And more tension, he says, “When he asked Pasquale about making him a pair of pants at first he said it would take weeks, maybe even a month.” Is he gonna get his suit? We don’t know. So that’s how he wraps that up. There’s a little bit of tension there at the end. And then his next objective, so now we move down the second part. The first part was pants. Next part is suit. His next objective is a full suit but if he just walked in nobody would help him right now. He’s got an obstacle. He needs to look like he deserves to get a hand-tailored suit. So first he goes off and gets his haircut at a shave in a traditional Neapolitan barber, and then prepared, he’s ready to go out to his suit place. So he goes to the suit place and this time he’s got a translator. He’s got somebody who’s taking him along, introducing him to this place where they have been making these suits for more than 50 years.

So again, we explain why this particular suit place is important, and then he gets into the character, so he gets into the dialogue. After he’s got his suit, which he outlines both how the guy measured him in the first place and also he says, “Come back on this afternoon, it will ready for its first fitting.” So then what does he do while he’s waiting for his suit? He tells you some other things about Naples, which don’t technically have to do with suits. So it seems like why do these things matter here? Why does he need to tell us what he’s doing while he’s waiting to come back in the afternoon? Why can’t we just go back with him in the afternoon?

Because he’s talking to us about other artisan traditions here in Naples. He’s talking about the people who sell goods pizza fritte, who sell little fritters on the side of the street. He explains to you what the street looks like. He’s creating a picture of what might be thought of as a kind of run-down neighborhood that most tourists would ignore. And the jewels besides just suits that you find in that neighborhood.

Then we get back into the action, back into the scene from that background. So he’s back in the studio. He’s got dialogue with Gennaro. He’s talking about how Gennaro, “Has measured all sorts of different part of the fit on him and then he takes it off and he rips apart the seams, flattens the fabric back on the table and redraws all the check lines just from memory.” So this is the second stop, and then it’s gonna be ready, he’s got that box checked. So now he’s out for the shirt maker.

And like I said, this piece is really quite long, so I’m not gonna go through all of the next steps with it, but I just wanna go on down to the end. So this one, the climax, of course, is when he not just finishes his suit, but when he puts on his suit and he goes out and eats. And he says, “A large part of the magic of these clothes, I realize, is they make you comfortable and that profoundly affects your appearance, your carriage, and your elegance.”

So that is the consequences, the climax is that he got the suit, but by explaining the consequences he’s showing us why this matters, right, why did it even matter for him to get this suit? Because it’s not just a suit, it’s a whole style of life that he has put on, that he is then able to embrace. So he talks about having his pasta, going out for his coffee, he’s got a picture of him here on the street with, I assume that’s his translator but it doesn’t have a quote here. He’s showing how a suit is never just a suit.

This is like if I did a piece like this about going to the pharmacy because I needed something, it would be how it’s not toothpaste, it’s about how in Italy they think about organizing and what is proper. That these places are only open on a certain time of day because at this point everyone goes home for lunch or they eat…can’t get this at the erborista because they don’t carry an herbal toothpaste so they simply wouldn’t have toothpaste in that store rather than carrying another toothpaste. It’s the things that you learn along the way that create this lesson, that create that conclusion that he’s able to come to at the end.

So I just wanna show you one more piece really quickly, which is also by the same guy, Tom Downey, and this one takes place in Japan. And because we’re at the end of our time, I’m gonna put that here in the chat box for you guys so you can pull it up and look at it more later. But there’s a couple things about the structure here that I wanna pull your guys’ attention to. So again, he gets right to the point, “I’m on the hunt for perfection, Japanese style. Years ago, that would have meant sipping matcha at a tea ceremony, watching Noh in a storied old theater, and learning the delicate art of ikebana or flower arranging. But in today’s Japan, no matter what the tourist brochures might tell you, those pursuits are about as relevant to the younger generation as animal husbandry, archery, and taxidermy are to most Americans. But that doesn’t mean that the Japanese have forsaken the resolute devotion to quality. In the last decade, though, they’ve applied them to other endeavors.”

And he goes on this is really fascinating the way that he sets it up. He’s only talking about his quest but it’s a really nice lead that has background. So he says, “In Japan, a country with comparatively few immigrants, the people with the know-how to make an Italian eel pie or sew a perfect pair of blue jeans are almost all Japanese citizens who have ventured abroad, gained new skills, and then returned home to sharpen their craft.” So he even comes out right and says, “My quest to seek out this modern spin on age-old perfection will lead me to a room full of classic American sewing machines in Okayama prefecture, to a Tokyo restaurant that serves specialties from provincial Italy, and to a four-seat café where it takes 20 minutes of intensely focused preparation to make a single cup of coffee.”

So you’ll see how here he’s chosen three things and they actually illustrate kind of a play on what you’d expect people to go to Japan for. You expect them to go to Japan for kimonos, sushi, and green tea, right, but instead he’s taken these globalized things and what he’s gonna do throughout this is he’s gonna have one section on each of these where at the beginning he says why he’s there, why does this place matter on his quest? Why is this a good exemplar of what he’s talking about, and he’s gonna introduce a character. I’m trying to highlight, it’s not working, Suwaki.

He’s gonna introduce the character, have the dialogue, and get into the action as he shows you how this denim is made. More character, more action, more dialogue. And then, again this is a long piece, Tom Downey writes long pieces, that’s why he gets to win awards. And then as he gets done that with the denim, he’s gonna move on in to the Italian food, but somehow the page is not cooperating with us, so hopefully you guys can see that on your screen. So as this piece goes along he follows what I was talking about, about that structure, but then each one he wraps up, he says he, “Strolls around Tokyo in his new purchase.” He, “likes how the cotton flexes as he moves.” And then that takes him to the Italian food.

All right, so what is the greater picture, the greater lesson that he only could have achieved by taking this quest? So we’re in the coffee place, he wraps it up within the coffee place, which is the last stop. He says, “As I watch Kiyota work, I think about the elaborate attention to detail I’ve seen at each stop on my search for perfection in Japan, the chain-stitched jeans, Koike’s [SP] grilled tuna collar. At the café, all of the intricate steps are visible. Kiyota has turned coffee brewing into a kind of performance, each move flawlessly orchestrated, each stir and each drop precisely timed and executed. He’s making coffee something obsessive, perfect, and entirely Japanese.”

So the point of this story is that. “As globalization has happened, which was a party that Japan was a bit late to both in the 1800s and in the 1900s, Japan has taken all of the great things from around the world and made them its own. And not just in a way that only Japanese people can appreciate, but we can visually appreciate by watching or by going and experiencing and tasting Japanese perfection in how they have perfected our own traditions from our own country.”

So let me pop back over to the slides, just to talk for a second about how to pitch these stories. So like I said, these stories are really long and that’s why it’s a little hard for me to show you the stories and read through them in the same way that we have done in the past with the other stories. But that’s why I included the links so that you guy can look at them on your own. And thinking about how to pitch them, I don’t have a lot to say about this, not because you shouldn’t pitch them, they’re hard to pitch, whatever, but because they’re so easy. You tell your editor, “I wanna go to…” Let me see. This is a story I gave to somebody a few years ago. “I wanna go to New York and not spend any time in the city and only be on the beach. My quest is to find the beach experience in New York. It’s an island, right, there must be beaches.” So that could be a quest, okay.

Now it seems like, why wouldn’t an editor assign that to me? I don’t understand. The biggest issue with the quest pieces in terms of how you pitch them is the “why you” section because editors know quest pieces work really well. They’re very easy to sell editors on. The harder thing is to get them to understand why you, and also why not, but particularly why you?

So what that means is that you need to make sure when you’re pitching quest pieces, that it’s something that you have a connection to in the beginning. Once you’ve got some quest pieces under your belt, especially if you have a good relationship with an editor and you’ve worked with them several times before, you can pitch them more broadly with your quest pieces. You can pitch them about places that you haven’t gone before. But in the beginning it works much better when you pitch them quest pieces that are based on an area of expertise that you have, that you’re known to have, maybe something you have a degree in, something you have previous work experience in. It’s really the usual… sort of the most important thing to focus on would pitching quest pieces.

But the second question is do you pitch it before your trip or after? And the answer is it’s kind of the same as I say about any question about whether you pitch before or after. Even though it seems like you need to pitch a quest piece before you go on a trip, that’s actually not true. You can pitch a quest piece after as well, and kind of you know, keep the suspense for the editor about how it turned out. But if you aren’t used to going on trips like this and knowing that you’re gonna come home with a story, I wouldn’t recommend pitching it beforehand. If you have pitched, in the past, stories and then written them and know you make up a story you know, you can get something, then it’s totally fine to pitch before.

Thank you, guys, so much, and I’ll talk to you guys next week about diary pieces. Bye-bye.